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kmatch
12-08-2010, 10:57 PM
When shooting universal clear over Kirker enamel, should I use Kirker's Laser Dry (basemaker/flattener) or shoot the Kirker as a single stage before clearing?

Barry
12-09-2010, 06:30 AM
Does Kirker have a clear they recommend? I have no clue about this stuff.

If not, as a safety factor you might look at an omni or even a demension clear for compatibility purposes.

kmatch
12-09-2010, 08:56 AM
That seems to contradict "Uses: This clear can be used on any job whether all-over or spot. This clear can also be sprayed
over anyone’s base coat and over any activated single stage paint after four hours, although preferably wait over night. Because this clear buffs so well, it’s an excellent
choice for custom paint jobs and motorcycle gas tanks." taken from your UC tech sheet.

The paint in question is activated which meets the criteria above and when I ordered the UC nothing I said (I don't remember the full conversation) seemed to raise any flags with your staff. So, is there a test I can do that would give results in a short time (lifting, solvent pop) or what?

Barry
12-09-2010, 09:05 AM
It will work but you are going from one end of the quality scale to the other end and that scares me, not short term but long term, sometimes lower grade products will work better over certain things long term.

Yes it will work.

crashtech
12-09-2010, 10:40 AM
Either way you go, contact Kirker and find out how long you are allowed to wait before applying clear. You'll want to wait as long as possible before applying the clear.

If your base color is a metallic, do a test panel to see if the clear is going to move the metallic around. You'll need to adjust your technique if it does.

Most of us have discovered the hard way that just because a cheap base color can be made to work, it's not without the risk of problems, and that applies to all high tech clears, not just SPI.

kmatch
12-09-2010, 11:01 AM
Long story short, but when I bought the Kirker paints a couple of years ago I did so out of being poor and I couldn't find one negative review from an actual user. Sure, many post "it's crap", but none of those claim to have used it. Even today I can't find any harsh remarks from actual users - only armchair quarterbacks. Users state it's "OK" or better with most concerns being related to flowout and that fits what I'm doing. Nowadays, I'm not quite as poor but I can't stand the thought of wasting it. No metallics here. What are some potential problems having it as a basecoat sandwiched between spi Epoxy and UC? I can test for quick problems but what are some long term issues that could pop up? Many thanks for the discussion!

Barry
12-09-2010, 11:29 AM
Understand your frustrations for finding info but shops don't use it and that is why the poor feedback, lot of the users never painted before using, is another problem.

Only person I know that uses it, was Jim Clark on here (the other Jimc, as he says)
He is an expert on the stuff, pm him, he will help you out.

crashtech
12-09-2010, 11:35 AM
The main problem I have had adapting slow drying low end base coats to function with new high solids clears is contraction or dieback of the clear due to solvents remaining in (or being re-absorbed out of)the clear by the base coat. To minimize this, allow plenty of dry time before clear. Using SPI reducer in the base coat (if possible) can help too, since this helps make the solvent blend of the base more compatible with the clear. Allowing plenty of flash time between every coat of base and between coats of clear also helps ensure a glossy finish.

Basically the point is to take your time, the longer, the better in most cases. The exception to this is products with a "recoat window," which is why it's important to get advice from the maker of the product as to maximum flash times.

In extreme cases, delamination can result from solvents being trapped under the finish. I'm sure Barry can add more to this aspect and others, I have not experienced delam with the products I am using.

jcclark
12-09-2010, 12:33 PM
Here's my experience.
First, don't use enamel, especially theirs.
Second, Never ever use "Lazer Dry" Never, ever.
I had a complete delamination useing that stuff,
redid it by the book, and it peeled off too.
took about 3 yrs both times.
(Even the place I bought it from admitted seeing
a lot of problems)
The first time, everyone said I didn't use it right,
So the second time I was very careful to follow directions,
same result, enamel pigment turned and then the clear peeled.

I painted my car I drive now with Kirker's urethane,
then cleared it with SPI Universal.
(waited overnight to clear it, no sanding involved)
It's been 4 yrs now and it still looks great, their
urethane is pretty good stuff. At least I know
it is with SPI clear on it. (LOL)
I also painted my boat and trailer with Kirker Urethane,
It's been real tough against scratches.
So go with the urethane if you can and avoid the enamels.

crashtech
12-09-2010, 02:04 PM
Here's an idea, if what you have is not urethane.

You could buy some of the Kirker clear that is specified for use on top of the product you have, apply it, then when it is cured enough, wet sand it and apply the SPI clear. Two clear sessions makes for an outstanding job in any case, and I believe this method would be safest and produce the highest quality. All the wait times between coats would still apply no matter the procedure.

jcclark
12-09-2010, 04:15 PM
Here's their tech sheets.
On the urethane, it says to not go more than 18 hrs
before top coating, after that it must be sanded first.
Going to soon mottled metallics for me.
3 hrs was the quickest I could get away with,
waiting overnight did best.:cool:

http://www.kirkerautomotive.com/html/technical_center.html

kmatch
12-09-2010, 07:02 PM
Here's an idea, if what you have is not urethane.

You could buy some of the Kirker clear that is specified for use on top of the product you have, apply it, then when it is cured enough, wet sand it and apply the SPI clear. Two clear sessions makes for an outstanding job in any case, and I believe this method would be safest and produce the highest quality. All the wait times between coats would still apply no matter the procedure.

Anyone object to this? I already have the Kirker clear, it's just that I heard so much good about SPI I decided to switch. This could save me some waste even if it's not the ideal solution.

Barry
12-09-2010, 08:04 PM
Idea sounds safe to me.

Barry
12-10-2010, 08:50 AM
I have given this a lot of thought and if me, here is how, I would do it.

Two coats of the K-clear, let set a couple of days and wet-sand, put outside for two full days, then wash with waterborne and let set 2-3 hours, then apply the SPI.

Lots of reasons I say this and there is only one thing I do want to point out.
It is a chemical fact, that the best clear in the world, can only do so much to protect a lower grade pigment, JC pointed this out on one of his jobs.

shine
12-10-2010, 09:19 AM
armchair quarterbacks ???? once again , a professional painter does not have to use a product to know if it is junk or not. duplicolor , por15 , kirker , cheap 2nd line paint . this is not hr.com. there are no wanabe's here posting advice. what will happen is the cheap kirker will fail and spi will get the blame.

jcclark
12-10-2010, 09:37 AM
So all Kirker paint will fail?
Surely you don't believe that.
Kirker has been selling paint for over 100 yrs
and it's used on thousands of cars every year.
How many have failed?

kmatch
12-10-2010, 09:40 AM
Shine, your level of respect just dropped a couple of points with me. The net is full of armchair quarterbacks. HR is one place, but I frequent MANY boards. To say even Rustoleum "will" fail is a stretch. Sure, the likelyhood is probably 98%, well, 99.9%, but the 2% room for error changes "will" to "might". Lastly, to even suggest I'd blame SPI for something I'm knowingly manipulating without having the first clue about how I roll, well, that just pisses me off. You've done better. I don't blame others for my mistakes.

Back to topic: Speaking of second lines, if I were to contact my local jobber (Martin Senior), what are their products that would work well sandwiched between SPI epoxy and UC? What do I need to know before walking in the door?

kmatch
12-10-2010, 09:45 AM
So all Kirker paint will fail?

How many have failed?

I've searched and searched... Yours makes 1, err, 2 (counting the second time)... There's just not too many complaining about it. Like anything, I'm sure there are many cases just unreported, but I can find bad news about ANYTHING on the net. I think Shine is having an off day.

shine
12-10-2010, 09:57 AM
i did not realize this site was going to turn into another hr.com. my bad for posting at all. i will not make that mistake again.

crashtech
12-10-2010, 10:21 AM
I have given this a lot of thought and if me, here is how, I would do it.

Two coats of the K-clear, let set a couple of days and wet-sand, put outside for two full days, then wash with waterborne and let set 2-3 hours, then apply the SPI.

Lots of reasons I say this and there is only one thing I do want to point out.
It is a chemical fact, that the best clear in the world, can only do so much to protect a lower grade pigment, JC pointed this out on one of his jobs.

I would like to add that it would be a fine idea to do a test panel along with this job, like a 12" square of metal, doing all the things to the metal as to the car. Then apply the SPI clear to the test panel first (don't do the vehicle yet), and observe it for a few hours. The reason I say this is because if the Kirker clear is slow to dry or crosslink, there could be an adverse reaction to being covered in clear again in such a relatively short time period. I'd say that the longer the Kirker paint is allowed to cure before re-clearing, the better. That actually applies to most paints too, when there is an unknown cure rate, not just Kirker. It would be less of a concern in the summertime, when you could rely on sunlight to pretty much bake the crap out of the coating pretty shortly.

P.S. Also, some older technology enamels actually rely on oxygen to cure, so if they are covered up too quickly, their cure rate may be permanently arrested. It might be helpful for you to post links to the product description sheets for all the materials you have in your possession.

kmatch
12-10-2010, 11:12 AM
It might be helpful for you to post links to the product description sheets for all the materials you have in your possession.

As long as I'm straying from mainstream products my plans are the same as yours - test panels. Good call. As for tech sheets, SPI is going under AND over and those sheets should be familiar enough (or I can post if needed). The only question is what's going between SPI. I have less Kirker left than I thought so I just may be finding another BC to use, hence, the question above about MS products. That jobber tries to be helpful, but he's not always accurate so I need to know what I need to know before I approach him.

The only line they have that suits my budget/needs is Crossfire, and it uses no activator in BC form. Is that anything worth even considering?

crashtech
12-10-2010, 11:29 AM
TEC/BASE is the only Martin Senour product worth considering.

Honestly, if you are considering an alternative base coat at this point, a higher quality product is really not much more in the big scheme of things, not to mention fewer headaches and a much improved probability of success. High quality base coats cover in fewer coats and can use SPI reducer. In many instances the more expensive base coat turns out to be more economical.

Have you priced Pro-Spray? Chad.S on here is a jobber for them. Do us all a favor and PM him before you buy any more paint!!!

P.S. Here's a link to Chad's website:

http://www.autorodtechnologies.com/

Chad.S
12-12-2010, 12:07 AM
What color are you looking at spraying, as crash said a better base will cover in fewer coats, and the reason i'm asking color is that some colors will get really good coverage in just a few coats. While other colors take more.

ADTKART
12-12-2010, 06:39 PM
Color and quality does make a big difference in the coverage. I am in the process of painting a 1973 Mustang with Pro Spray that I got from Chad. The color is Performance Red and was kind of pricey for a non-metalic base, but covered the white SPI epoxy sealer in just 2 coats and just over 2 qts of base. The last Stang that I did was a 67 that was done with Chromabase in Acapulco Blue. That car took 3 full coats and was over 3 qts of base.

If your painting experience is limited, spend the money on a quality base, and cover it with SPI clear. It will definately be worth the money. The more you have to spray, the more chances of mistakes to screw things up.

Aaron

Barry
12-12-2010, 06:52 PM
Kmatch,

To be clear (no pun intended) The universal will go over your stuff as well as theirs, I would make sure the color is activated like it should be and wait over night.
You can call me anytime, of course.

crashtech
12-12-2010, 11:37 PM
Did we chase him away?

Barry
12-13-2010, 06:52 AM
I hope not, these are very tough threads to answer and this is where the problem comes in on any forum like this.

He pointed out, he did not want an arm chair response from someone that did not use it, so he got a little mad at Shine.

Problem comes in when a professional painter answers something like this is they know the reputation of all the brands whether they have used the brand or not, they learn these facts from their jobber salesman or other painters and shops they know.
The other issue is, painters are looking at the long term results and not the short term and to a lot of people not in this business, red is red and green is green and of course price is the big difference.

To compare, take a mechanic, he knows not to use a fram oil filter, yet they have some great advertising, so the customer knows the name fram but don't know what a wix is as no real need for Wix to advertise to the do it your self market.

This is also why you see very few painters stick around most general paint forums for long, as the frustration, over the pors, rust converters and low grade paints, do take there toll.

Hard to explain and harder to understand.

Overall, I think he got a more civilized answer and and a better answer here then he could of, on most forums and I would like to thank you all for that.

shine
12-13-2010, 07:46 AM
when 50 dollars worth of cheap paint is more important than the quality of the job on their car i do get frustrated. 19 dollar paint guns and cheap internet paint . it shows disrespect for the ones who do this for a living every day. i visit those other paint forums but never post. it is absolutely amazing what kind of advice you see. but then i have hired those same idiots time after time over the years. some will never make it past lot car work .
i will no longer post on a thread where i do not recognize the poster. it is a waste of time. they do not want the right answer, they will ask the same question on every board until they find someone to agree with them. i think my days on the net are numbered .

and for the record . there are not many brands of paint i have not used over the years. reps give the stuff away trying to get you to switch.
i do not have to load acme into my gun to know it is junk. and i would use jd blitz before using kirker.

kmatch
12-13-2010, 09:46 AM
I haven't gone away! LOL! And THANK YOU to all who've replied so far. I simply enjoyed the weekend and did some bodywork. I'm not mad AT Shine, simply the tone of one post. Nothing personal. He made a point without firsthand knowledge which was the opposite of my question. Let's move on.

Again, to start with, this was going to be a simple spray-n-pray save-a-buck paint job. Plans changed a bit, so here we are. I've talked with 3 jobbers, and the paint on the ballot is Crossfire, Omni, and Nason (which the jobber for Nason doesn't seem concerned about returning a call). I've shot Nason with good results. What about Omni? For convenience (refills, supporting supplies and jobber support), Omni would get the nod. Is it worth a flip? When I asked, he stated it used no activator, but since, I've found both AE and AU don't require activator as such so I'm not sure which one we were discussing. I'll look more into that if it's worth the time.

Color is 2k (red). Price difference around here between the lower ends mentioned and the regular PPG and such is too much to consider. Anyone insisting, feel free to send cash! Otherwise, let's work within my budget.

Barry
12-13-2010, 09:54 AM
Is this car a keeper?
Reds are the worse and my choice in this order is Nason, Omni, other I forgot so not listed>>>> LOL
Is this a factory code red? What kind of car is it?

kmatch
12-13-2010, 10:10 AM
Ya caught me on my way out the door (to work), so to be brief: It's an old Mustang I'm bringing back. Yep, it deserves more, but...

So, you put Nason in front of Omni? I suspected the opposite, but that's why I ask - I don't know about them. The color code is a factory code, but there is no matching involved as it's a complete inside/out redo. Focusing on Omni (for the moment/sake of conversation), he is selling the MBC AU I just found out for sure. I lean towards these guys as they've been in business the same time I've been in auto repair - 28 years. I "can" use the Nason, but support sucks and the paint comes from another county which makes refills, oops issues and such a problem. Locally, it's between Omni and Crossfire.

glennm
12-13-2010, 10:50 AM
Well let me say up front I'm not a professional by any means, I've only painted about 3 cars in my life and I'm no spring chicken. I've always tried to use good paint, but like kmatch i don't have an unlimited budget. After spending a lot of time reading different forums about paint I was even more confused. So one day I was on the Chevelle forum and i was recommended to come here. After reading for months, I was convinced that there was a lot of professionals posting.

I was going to paint my Chevelle SS with Dupont until I found out how much that stuff costs. So I decided to ask on here and was delighted to find Pro-Spray from Chad s. His paint was half the price. I ordered a gallon of his paint and let me tell you it covers. I laid SPI white epoxy primer under it and it covered in two coats, but I added a third to make sure I didn't have any thin spots.. not a pro here, and used Universal Clear on top.

But the final results were far more than I ever expected it to be. My two brothers and my nephew wanted to know if I would paint their old hot rods for them and wondered if I would paint cars for a living.. I told them NO WAY.. They couldn't believe how my paint turned out. I want kmatch to know that there are cheaper alternatives out there and to follow the advice on this forum. I have been given free advice that works to a tee, for free.. what more can u ask for. Top notch advice and I appreciate all you guys have done for me.

BTW I have used different color basecoats from Chad and will never buy anywhere else.

Senile Old Fart
12-13-2010, 08:49 PM
if the Omni red covers as well as Omni black, then run like hell, its crap.

Chad.S
12-13-2010, 10:23 PM
Thanks glen, i appreciate..

Chad.S
12-13-2010, 10:26 PM
I also have to agree with barry on nason over omni! I have tried both and from what I remember I remember always getting better results from nason, whether it was base, clear, or single stage. It just seemed to be better all around, but it's been probably 7yrs since I have used either.

After having 2 omni jobs die back really bad I decided that using lower grade products wasn't worth it for me.
But I have to back up my work, you just have to please yourself.

Bondoking
12-14-2010, 01:49 AM
I used omni twice. Both for my vehicles. Never again. The base took a ton of coats to cover and their ss was just a cheap enamel with a shot of "urethane additive" lmaoooo.. The base job died back and

Bondoking
12-14-2010, 01:51 AM
the single stage job even though topcoated with universal, cracks underneath!!!!! Yes I said cracks.. It was fine on metal, but on my bumpers.. if u push on them it cracks under the clear like craZy!!

Bondoking
12-14-2010, 01:53 AM
I understand painting inside a budget, however some corners need not be cut.. Just my opinion from a backyardagain hack :)

kmatch
12-14-2010, 09:30 AM
Interesting replies! I thought highly of Omni for some reason, then I did the research and came up with the same thing mentioned here over, and over, and over... it covers like water. While I can't hardly find bad reviews on a low end like Kirker, there's plenty of bad news about a supposed "upper" lower class like Omni. So a bit more searching on Nason gives it much higher grades than I expected. I've had personal good results with it the one time I used it from matching (not an issue here) to workability and others think it's a good bang for the buck. It may do for my needs. It's priced to match my abilities so it sounds like a plan. Let's remember one thing: A budget is one thing, but even $1000 paint won't make a hobo painter a pro. I've gotta paint within my abilities. On the other hand, better paints might hide some of my in-abilities. Hmmm... Thanks for ALL the help, guys. I'm still open to suggestions, though, so any other thoughts, by all means, post for there's room for lurkers to learn as well.

crashtech
12-14-2010, 10:59 AM
Curious as to whether you considered Pro-Spray, and why or why not.

I was seriously considering putting a Pro-Spray mixing bank in my shop, may still do it in the future when budget allows.

kmatch
12-14-2010, 12:02 PM
ProSpray sounds good, but considering it being nearly double in cost for an unknown (to me) and mail order, it just doesn't give me good vibes for the job at hand.

shine
12-14-2010, 12:12 PM
by all means use the omni .

kmatch
12-14-2010, 12:33 PM
Us po' folks jus' don' git no respect. Dude, as long as you're as helpful as in this thread, how about keeping that promise you made in your second reply? I thought you just had a bad day. I was wrong. It happens.

Barry
12-14-2010, 06:19 PM
how much is the omni and how much you need?

jeremyb
12-14-2010, 06:54 PM
employee of mine does lot work at his house occasionally on the side and just about all he uses is omni base. does fine for what he's doing. Myself personally, wouldn't touch it. But what we do at work is totally different that what he is doing in his shop in the backyard. Same goes for anything i paint myself. Different strokes for different folks. You would rather use the paint store you know because they are convienent and thats what they carry and their stuff fits your budget...completely understand that. But i would seriously consider the pro spray. Have you priced it vs the omni or nason? I've never used it but i've seen nothing but good raves on it here and other places. I know you have a budget, but i just hate to see guys get this far skimp on the color. You've already found SPI..there are a lot of cheaper priced clears than the uv you are using and you get cheaper quality along with that price...but since you've used the spi you wont turn back will you?

kmatch
12-14-2010, 07:06 PM
Researching Omni, it seems to be hated worse than Rustoleum. No thanks, although that does surprise me coming from PPG. Why? You trying to pawn some off on someone? LOL!

kmatch
12-14-2010, 07:35 PM
You would rather use the paint store you know because they are convienent and thats what they carry and their stuff fits your budget...completely understand that. But i would seriously consider the pro spray. Have you priced it vs the omni or nason? I've never used it but i've seen nothing but good raves on it here and other places. I know you have a budget, but i just hate to see guys get this far skimp on the color. You've already found SPI..there are a lot of cheaper priced clears than the uv you are using and you get cheaper quality along with that price...but since you've used the spi you wont turn back will you?

Prospray was considerably higher than my local choices - twice in some cases. More expensive paint won't make me a painter. Painting is a hobby so I can afford the time to fix mistakes and such as my income isn't dependent on this as many of the guys defending going up a notch. Some make me laugh getting so worked up about it, I wonder why they don't call the manufacture and insist they close the doors for selling such horrible crap. Selling some poor slob POR making him think he'll make it onstage at Barrett Jackson is pretty bad, just the same as spraying HOK pearls onto a CJ7 and beating it around the woods. My project and skills calls for a middle of the line product and knowing where one stands is job one.

SPI primer suits me for its rust protecting abilities around the gulf coast. SPI clear suits me because it sounds forgiving for scuff and buff which will be needed for any mistakes I make such as dust and a possible run or 2. What goes in between requires it to look decent and stick. That's it. This car will be driven daily and maybe even washed sometimes.

I've used Nason before and liked it. Folks all over the net like it. It's kind of a pain to get, but doable within a day or so, so that's what I'm using. Those that are offended? Hah! I'm accepting donations for anyone who thinks I should step it up! LOL!

ADTKART
12-14-2010, 08:39 PM
When considering the price, make sure that you consider the amount of materials you will be using. If you need to shoot 4-6 coats of Nason or another lower priced brand, instead of 2-3 coats of a higher quality, then you have to adjust the prices to make up for that. I understand budgets, but sometimes that means you wait a little longer. If you look at the budget and decide that way, you may be sorry. Let's say your budget is $1000, and it would take $1200 to use a better paint, then why not wait until the additional $200 is available? If you do it with the cheaper paint, then you may wish you had gone the better way. Not to do it will cost you another $1200, instead of the original additional $200.

I don't know what prices you have gotten, or sure about the color, but the Pro Spray has very good coverage. As I stated earlier, I got complete coverage in 2 coats over white epoxy sealer. The car I am working on is a 73 Mustang. It is one of the largest Mustangs made when it comes to paintable areas. Three quarts would have given me plenty to repair quite a few screw-ups, even doing the insides of the hood, trunk lid and doors.

You are right to believe that a higher quality paint won't make you a professional painter. A cheaper, low quality paint will make it harder to produce an acceptable paint job.

Most people here know me. I am not a professional painter. I usually paint 1 or 2 cars a year, but my main thing is bodywork. For a long time I used cheaper paint guns, figuring that a good gun was not going to make me a painter. One day I borrowed a SATA from a friend of mine. I found out what a difference quality makes. Now I have an Iwata that I purchased a while back. Can't figure out why I didn't listen to the experts sooner.

BTW..... If you would add your location to your profile, you may find that there is someone that is close to you and willing to help.

Aaron

crashtech
12-15-2010, 12:08 AM
It's interesting to me how you are sold on the quality of SPI clears and primers, but seem to consider the base color as almost an afterthought.

I can assure you that the quality of the base has a substantial effect on the quality of the paint job. Adhesion, chip resistance, gloss, and overall longevity are all influenced by the type of basecoat used.

The point of a higher quality base is not to make you a better painter, but to improve the quality of the finish. Most of us have witnessed guys spend hundreds of hours on a project only to basically ruin it with poor product selection. I think the reason most of us resist this type of thinking so much is because we value ourselves and our time spent on a job substantially more than the cost of the paint.

I have told customers that if they want to stay within a budget, not to choose red. It is the most expensive solid color. It's also quite common for less expensive reds to have extremely poor coverage, necessitating additional purchases of color that will partially or totally negate any cost savings you are trying to realize, as well as creating a thicker film of base, which compromises the quality of the finish.

No matter what base you choose, get a few sprayout cards from the jobber (they ought to be free) and see how many coats it takes to cover the test pattern. You might be unpleasantly surprised.

Hotbo
12-15-2010, 12:44 PM
Omni Bases And Nason bases are Horrible to say the least :mad:

when you are working from the ground up,you need ever step to be a good quality product,saying the base is just there for looks and will be sealed by the clear is not correct at all.

the better the base the better the coverage,better Adhesion and longer all around life of the color.


i have used my fair share of cheaper bases,both Nason and Omni over the years at my repair shop.

i found right away they were junk and color matching was piss poor.

so i said well i will use only for budget all overs when i get 1 or 2,well that lasted about 1 or 2 times and i found myself asking why in the Hell would i even think about using this Junk :confused:

i am in the collision repair side and work with bodywork and primers and paints daily.

i don't use junk Filler and i don't use Junk Primer and i don't use Junk bases or clears,i have been down this road and i have felt and seen the results months to years later.


everything is about price?we all have the problem ever day with everything from groceries to Gas we put in our vehicles.

i only use Deltron Dbc base coats at my shop for all my work,yes its pricey but i have to make my work look great and sell my product after every job and it has to last more than 1-2 years ;)

i use all SPI primers,Reducers and UV clear.

skimping on the base is just another step that is wrong in the process of painting.

i hope you take no offense to this,as I am just stating facts like a lot have already stated to you.

if you cant afford to use a Quality base you might ask yourself why?you have good Quality Primer and Clear.

i have heard great things about Pro-Spray also which i plan to try someday on something of my own,just to see what its all about.

i wish you the best,Travis :cool: