So why is a base coat like PPG Omni, Omni Plus, or Limco Supreme not good to use????

I see posts on the Moto-Base, Prop-Spray, and Wanda here, but nothing on why not to be using Omni, Omni Plus, or the Limco, or Limco Plus? Is it because they are not poly base coats, or they will fade out faster over time, even under a great clear? Please someone tell me. I am sure i heard it all before from Barry at some point, but I admit, i forgot. Some of their prices are appealing, for an old resto overall job, but I just can't feel good anymore about spraying the Omni, although I know the local jobber sells tons of it, still. Why would the first three mentioned be so much better than say, Omni Plus? Also if i look at Automotive Arts website the correct spelling for the Moto line is Motobase, not Moto-Base. Is that correct? I am just going by the website. I ask because I have seen it being spelled Moto-Base, here. I know it's not a big deal either way, but I like to know the correct spelling of a product, when I am considering using it. Thanks!

Of all the basecoats that you mention I have only used OMNI, OMNI Plus and Limco. I'm a bit out of the loop about the OMNI label because I moved to Canada and we only have OMNI Plus in here.

From what I remember OMNI is a converted enamel base, whatever the hell that means I have no idea, I only know it is SLOW to dry and it has poor coverage in certain colors. I think the same applies to the regular LIMCO line. So in certain reds, blues, yellows you will have to pile on more coats for full hiding than with better basecoat systems, this may increase your chance of having problems with your paintjob.

OMNI Plus is a decent basecoat here in Canada, BC. I have seen blends on metallics where the base lays a bit on the rough side, specially if you use it with the OMNI Low VOC reducer. But overall most shops seem to be happy with it, I have no idea how it holds up long term though.

WANDA I only used to for about a year in Las Vegas, I think it offers great value for the money, even at a 50% reduction.

If AKZO decided to make WANDA low VOC it would probably mop the floor with OMNI, Matrix, Value Pro, etc.. But there's a snowball's chance in hell that ever happening, it would steal so much sales from their Lesonal WB and Sikkens Autowave.

I have used a lot of Omni Plus especially at my current job. Main differences that I can tell from using it are, coverage and color. It usually takes one more coat of Omni Plus versus DBC in any particular color. 2 or more with yellows and some oranges. The second difference is color match. Some codes are slightly off, I have been told this is because of the lower quality toners used. An example would be the Subaru WRX blue WR Blue. Prime using Omni Plus is way off. Prime using DBC is spot on. As for durability I can only speak to what I have done. I have not seen any comebacks for any sort of issue with basecoat failure or fading in the 4 years I have been at my current job.

My opinion is that if you are painting something on a budget you can save significantly versus DBC and still have something that looks nice. Here's a pic of a 66 Barracuda that I used Omni Plus on. Not the greatest pics but maybe it helps illustrate my point.

If its for one all over, it should be suitable. For those of us who paint for a living, the differences are major. Some spray and lay down smoother than others. As mentioned, there are coverage and matching/inconsistent toner issues. Cheaper base usually arent as vibrant. Clear can only do so much.

My personal experience is Sikkens, Lesonal, UTECH, Diamont, Limco, House of Kolor, Envirobase, Deltron and Shopline. According to who you ask, Shopline and Omni are the same thing. The PPG shops I worked for had the most issues and comebacks by far....... by FAR!!!. Shopline and Envirobase has delaminated on more cars than I can count. Not saying there isnt human error involved but production shops have the same basic standard operating procedure.

Limco and Lesonal are about par with Shopline but Ive had less trouble with those two. I worked with Autobase for 7 years and remember being great stuff. My favorite is Diamont, although it is ridiculously expensive. It lays down velvet smooth and mottling is virtually non-existent. It's very vivid too. Diamont and Wanda are polyester base and according to the fine folks on this board, say they are very similar. I hope to try Wanda in the near future because of this.

It also comes down to a brand preference like Ford/Chevy. PPG has been nothing but a nightmare for me. For others, it works well. Akzo and RM have been easy and rock solid.

lesonal is about on par with diamont. nothing even close to limco which is a modified acrylic enamel. diamont and lesonal are priced about the same and both considered a premium paint line. limco which i have used for some thing since i had diamont for about 8 years, is complete crap. its good for things like trailers or an all over on a $1k used car. that kind of thing.

I've done a couple over all jobs with Nason, it was ok for a solid color (black) although it projects 500 grit scratches even with a sealer. Nason for a metallic like a gold, for me it was a fight with mottling. It's not very slick, Chroma is slicker, hides better, much better in regard to mottle. Still not awesome but not bad in my experience. Kirker.... I hated it. I would maybe try it again some day on a budget job of I had slow activator for it.

Metalux by chemspec has been nice for me, lays really slick, good hiding, pretty much a 2 coat base, good in regard to mottle. It's what i'm using on one of my current projects. Universal clear over it.

I was really happy to spray a powdery ice blue metallic with no mottle fight, I had the purple cap on stand by for the LPH400 but I didn't need it. When your base has enough solids to cover sealed 500 grit scratches, with 2 coats, no mottle and lays slick, Well it makes the whole job a lot nicer, much more enjoyable to work with and higher quality shows through in the end.

I haven't sprayed PPG in many years, last time I used it it was a "DBC" system probably back in the 90's.

Interestingly enough I'm getting that car back soon for a fresh repaint. 67 mustang coupe.I think I painted it about 18 yrs ago.

I used to help a guy in mid to late 90s that used limco supreme base and clear. Those jobs were good for 3-5 years. He used cheap primer with no sealer. He even used their reducer. They were allovers too. His customers were more interested in a cheap final cost than longetivy. I hate to bash a lower line because it does have a place for people who look more at cost than quality.

i hear valspar has a new high gloss latex .

elwood;n81090 said:

I used to help a guy in mid to late 90s that used limco supreme base and clear. Those jobs were good for 3-5 years. He used cheap primer with no sealer. He even used their reducer. They were allovers too. His customers were more interested in a cheap final cost than longetivy. I hate to bash a lower line because it does have a place for people who look more at cost than quality.

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That just makes me cringe.

But I knew guys like that, back in the day.

Makes me think of a 68 torino I looked at last summer. it was for sale. Guy wanted a crapload of money for what he had. It was a mystery wrapped in a nightmare. The nightmare was the "paint" that was on it. I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on with this paint attempt and WHY? Looked like a 7th grade science experiment, it was beyond horrible. I can't begin to explain accurately enough how horrible it was. Looked like the body work was done with drywall knives, no sanding, just spreading, except for the grinder marks which seemed to be very random. Looked to be painted with rollers, then coated with dirt, then more roller paint, then a final spray job of single stage midnight blue with incomplete coverage. except for the runs, they had good color hiding.

I was like... "that's horrible! That's all got to come off, what ever it is.... so a person can see what the metal is like, fix what needs fixing and start again correctly from scratch."

Dude looks at me and says "Well it's not done yet, the paint job.... we're about $5k into it so far."

I said "$5k? For what??? This is terrible! I'd give more money if this was all not here... This is a disaster"

I asked him if he was pulling my leg. "You didn't actually pay someone to do this to the car? Did you?"

"five thousand" he said.

I told him I was sorry for him, explained that he's upside down MORE than 5K because of it because it's all got to come off and taking it down to bare metal isn't going to be free.

I spray PPG Envirobase every day and honestly have never had a come back or major issue. I have sprayed a lot of shopline, which is just cheap sprayable paint. I Sprayed DBC at the first shop I worked at for 5 months and enjoyed it. If you follow the P sheets correctly and allow the water to flash, I think Envirobase is a great paint line. Having sprayed it for almost 4 years now i havent ran into one issue that made me want to turn away. Where I am PPG is one of the biggest sprayed.

The only issue I have had was with Dupont's water system. Spraying with their paint rep, he said no more than 2 coats necessary, and long story short, you need more for almost every color.

Jim C said:

lesonal is about on par with diamont. nothing even close to limco which is a modified acrylic enamel. diamont and lesonal are priced about the same and both considered a premium paint line. limco which i have used for some thing since i had diamont for about 8 years, is complete crap. its good for things like trailers or an all over on a $1k used car. that kind of thing.

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I didnt realize Lesonal was that expensive or good. I trust you and Chris. You both have way more experience than myself. It's the line I have the least amount of time with. I believe anything Akzo makes is quality.

Technically yes it is Motobase, but I have a issue with that as every time I type it here it has the red squiggly line under it saying I spelled it wrong. And Pro-Spray was always listed with the hyphen so it's a bad habit for me.

But to answer you question, there will be a lot of answers, some are listed above.. In my opinion there are a lot of advantages using a better paint line, better coverage, better color matches, better adhesion (basecoat is the weakest link), some may spray smoother than others, better metallic control, liquid pearls over dry pearls, easier repair ability. etc etc.

I would say around 10-15 years ago a guy re-did his car and stopped by, basically begging for somebody to paint his car, I knew the guy, and have painted some bikes for him over the years, he put together a beater and wanted somebody to spray it one color. He already purchased the paint, and had the car prepped for paint. so since at this point I considered him a friend I decided to help him out. He came by, finished taping the car up and we began to paint it. No matter what we did we couldn't get the base coat to look right, it had stripes, mottling and took forever to get coverage. Since I was basically doing this for nothing and just trying to help him out, there wasn't much I could do, since at this point he was struggling with his job and finances he decided it didn't look to bad and wanted to clear it instead of buying premium base to try to fix the problem, well the clear only magnified the problems and this car looked absolutely terrible. He drove it like that for a few years until he got his feet back on the ground a little better, and sold it, but it was one of those cars I was always disappointed in. This was the first and last time I ever used Omni basecoat on anything..

Painting this car was a huge learning experience for me because until this point I have always avoided using the really cheap base coats, at the time I was using DBC in the shop. Which I wasn't really happy with either, and eventually made a switch to Global, which I liked much more but the price on Global was through the roof. Then I turned to SPI and Pro-Spray and now to the lines I carry now.

I feel with lines like Moto Base, Wanda, Pro-Spray, and I am sure there are others in this category are lines that give the best bang for the buck as they may perform every bit as good as the high end lines with a better price point. This is no different than comparing SPI to the expensive clears and primers from PPG.. Lines like PPG, Axalta, Diamont, Glasurit, etc etc, have just raised there prices so high that they created room for all of these other companies to come in with a really good product at a better price.

This is just all my opinion but I hope it helps.

SmokeyHaze;n81105 said:

I spray PPG Envirobase every day and honestly have never had a come back or major issue. I have sprayed a lot of shopline, which is just cheap sprayable paint. I Sprayed DBC at the first shop I worked at for 5 months and enjoyed it. If you follow the P sheets correctly and allow the water to flash, I think Envirobase is a great paint line. Having sprayed it for almost 4 years now i havent ran into one issue that made me want to turn away. Where I am PPG is one of the biggest sprayed.

The only issue I have had was with Dupont's water system. Spraying with their paint rep, he said no more than 2 coats necessary, and long story short, you need more for almost every color.

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Most shops I talk to that have water base are not impressed, the shops that do like it, are the shops that really have the right equipment and made the investment. I feel that if you are going to go to water you really need to do it right. Water would not work for me or my environment. So it's not something I ever tried to get involved in.

I also hear that water has a much higher profit margin than solvent which is why they have put so much effort into pushing this through. A lot of this stuff comes down to politics and if they can make a higher percentage on a product you can bet that is going to be the next new "best" thing. Will it be better for some?? Sure, but will it take over the market? at this point I don't think so.

SmokeyHaze said:

I spray PPG Envirobase every day and honestly have never had a come back or major issue. I have sprayed a lot of shopline, which is just cheap sprayable paint. I Sprayed DBC at the first shop I worked at for 5 months and enjoyed it. If you follow the P sheets correctly and allow the water to flash, I think Envirobase is a great paint line. Having sprayed it for almost 4 years now i havent ran into one issue that made me want to turn away. Where I am PPG is one of the biggest sprayed.

The only issue I have had was with Dupont's water system. Spraying with their paint rep, he said no more than 2 coats necessary, and long story short, you need more for almost every color.

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What part of the country are you located? I know of other people in other parts of the country that it works well for, mostly up north. We had constant training, factory reps try to help, followed P sheets to the letter.. I sprayed cut-ins all day, which wasnt a big deal. But the painters had a hell of a time with it. It is extremely slow drying in central tx. Never could tack the base. So naturally, it was extremely dirty jobs that had to be completely sanded and buffed. Buffing bumpers was a nightmare. Also, the clear just didnt hold up to TX sun. We did warranties left and right only 3 years old. This is Deltron, Envirobase or Global clear, depending on the job. In theory, I had the most money making opportunity at that shop...6 booths, 4 painters. The entire shop is producing literally $1million some months. So I wish it would have worked. We were working 12-16 hour days mostly fighting the paint. Had zero life outside of that shop because of exhaustion and stress.

Not arguing, just trying to learn from someone it works for. I talk to those guys every now and then and nothing has changed. They still fight the same issues.

Chad.S;n81111 said:

Most shops I talk to that have water base are not impressed, the shops that do like it, are the shops that really have the right equipment and made the investment. I feel that if you are going to go to water you really need to do it right. Water would not work for me or my environment. So it's not something I ever tried to get involved in.

I also hear that water has a much higher profit margin than solvent which is why they have put so much effort into pushing this through. A lot of this stuff comes down to politics and if they can make a higher percentage on a product you can bet that is going to be the next new "best" thing. Will it be better for some?? Sure, but will it take over the market? at this point I don't think so.

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I'm only 25. I haven't had the opportunity to spray some of the products others have on her but I did 3 years at Penntech to be a collision tech where I majored in refinishing and sprayed water all 3 years. Before that I sprayed shop line some. Right out of school I sprayed DBC for about 4-5 months and thought it was the best until I sprayed water again where I'm at now. It definitely has its days. Humidity does play a big roll in flashing. But I paint at a bigger production shop, not In a garage at my house where some guys on here might have a lot of trouble with it. Our booths aren't the newest but flow a nice amount of air. Air movement is key to the water flashing and the correct viscosity really does make a difference for it when reducing. Having a heated booth is the worlds difference too. It's very user friendly when you figure it out, but going from solvent to water I know it's not as forgiving in some aspects and a lot of people do struggle.

Besides sometimes trouble flashing in hot humid temps, I wouldn't want to go back to solvent. It's really hard to bed the vividness of water. When I just painted my grandfathers vette in tuxedo black (UH) the DBC spray out and envirobase spray out was night and day on pop.

-Keith- I'm located about 15 minutes outside of Harrisburg, PA. South central PA. Our colds get cold, and our hot is hot.

SmokeyHaze said:

Chad.S;n81111 said:

Most shops I talk to that have water base are not impressed, the shops that do like it, are the shops that really have the right equipment and made the investment. I feel that if you are going to go to water you really need to do it right. Water would not work for me or my environment. So it's not something I ever tried to get involved in.

I also hear that water has a much higher profit margin than solvent which is why they have put so much effort into pushing this through. A lot of this stuff comes down to politics and if they can make a higher percentage on a product you can bet that is going to be the next new "best" thing. Will it be better for some?? Sure, but will it take over the market? at this point I don't think so.

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I'm only 25. I haven't had the opportunity to spray some of the products others have on her but I did 3 years at Penntech to be a collision tech where I majored in refinishing and sprayed water all 3 years. Before that I sprayed shop line some. Right out of school I sprayed DBC for about 4-5 months and thought it was the best until I sprayed water again where I'm at now. It definitely has its days. Humidity does play a big roll in flashing. But I paint at a bigger production shop, not In a garage at my house where some guys on here might have a lot of trouble with it. Our booths aren't the newest but flow a nice amount of air. Air movement is key to the water flashing and the correct viscosity really does make a difference for it when reducing. Having a heated booth is the worlds difference too. It's very user friendly when you figure it out, but going from solvent to water I know it's not as forgiving in some aspects and a lot of people do struggle.

Besides sometimes trouble flashing in hot humid temps, I wouldn't want to go back to solvent. It's really hard to bed the vividness of water. When I just painted my grandfathers vette in tuxedo black (UH) the DBC spray out and envirobase spray out was night and day on pop.

-Keith- I'm located about 15 minutes outside of Harrisburg, PA. South central PA. Our colds get cold, and our hot is hot.

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Good breakdown.. I wouldn't mind seeing the solvent vs water spray out, but we probably wouldn't be able to see much difference through the computer screen. I could see where that would be a advantage.

Sorry for the delay of the pictures. If they show up clear enough, you can see that the water, on left, is more vivid and how the metallic and pearl really stand up. It's also a slight grey shade out if direct sun light, where as the DBC on the right has less of a stand up metallic look. It's also a darker black base look. There is some difference but it shows how water does different from solvent for the same color.

Interesting Smokey, maybe the future isn't so bleak after all. Oh and just to clarify what I posted. I'm no fanboy of Omni Plus. I have had to use it the last few years and have found that it is not as horrible as everyone seems to think it is. If you can afford it by all means go with a better basecoat. Being in a small town that has been decimated by Manufacturing jobs going overseas we often find ourselves having to eat some or all of the deductible as folks around here just don't have the cash. Being able to save 75-100% on paint versus a better line like DBC helps us to stay in business.

The pigment company we buy our pigments from it the largest in the world and a supplier to all the majors, they hired a women head of something and now once a week get very technical letters on different subjects. I look forward to these as this women is good where normally I just delete this type of letter as most are sales pitches by someone who don't have a clue unless its house paint.

A few weeks a go she sent a letter about cheap paints, very educational as the moral of the story is when you buy a paint where they cut back on pigment, longevity goes south real fast, just something to put in back of your mind.
SOOO if one brand of the same color takes 4 coats to cover vs the other that takes 2 coats to cover better look at how long you need to live with that project.

Barry;n81204 said:

The pigment company we buy our pigments from it the largest in the world and a supplier to all the majors, they hired a women head of something and now once a week get very technical letters on different subjects. I look forward to these as this women is good where normally I just delete this type of letter as most are sales pitches by someone who don't have a clue unless its house paint.

A few weeks a go she sent a letter about cheap paints, very educational as the moral of the story is when you buy a paint where they cut back on pigment, longevity goes south real fast, just something to put in back of your mind.
SOOO if one brand of the same color takes 4 coats to cover vs the other that takes 2 coats to cover better look at how long you need to live with that project.

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That definitely makes you think, thanks for sharing. I see that a lot with for example shop line single stage vs Ppg DCC for coverage. Of course you pay more, but you get more too