Maybe I should use single stage

S

sandybob

Promoted Users
I came across this article and I thought maybe I could get some feedback from the pros as to whether you agree to everything in it. For instance: pressure feed guns should be used to shoot single stage metallic and not gravity feed guns. Now I know that gov. regs prohibit this but if not what would you use given the choice?
That's only one but there are many. What do you think about it?

benklesc.medium.com

When Paint Jobs Lasted Forever: The Lost Art Of Single Stage

A look at the history of chemical structures used in automobile paints and how they have changed professional results overtime.
benklesc.medium.com benklesc.medium.com

sandybob
 
I had to stop reading because I think the article is full of horse manure, even though there are grains of truth here and there in it. I would love to see a list of sources from this author, until then I tend to believe a lot of it is coming from where the sun doesn't shine.
 
This should tell you all you need to now about the veracity of this article. Quote:"For starters I myself am a new automotive painter and bodyman."

It's written from the perspective of a young guy looking back without any familiarity or real knowledge of the products he's talking about. Like Crash alluded to.....he's talking out of his ass.

When I painted my first car back when I was 18, I wanted a urethane BC/CC job because it would last longer. Growing up I had had enough of compounding and waxing all the family cars twice a year. I wanted something that wouldn't fade and last.

Compare the DOI of a modern BC/CC mettallic to old SS enamel metallic jobs, it's not even close.

High quality lacquers are the only thing worth waxing nostalgic about from the era before urethane bc/cc. And that is because of how they looked. Longevity of those lacquer jobs was limited.
 
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Whoa....that was slamming on the brakes on this article......well OK I had hoped to gain a little info in the course of everyone picking this guy apart. Thought to myself when I read it this all can't be right just thought I would ask. :oops:

sandybob
 
El Toro said:
I don't think we are slamming him some of us have the experience of using these products in the 70's and into the late 80's,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we don't know it all and actually I enjoyed the pictures and some of the article . And of course this is our opinion
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It is your opinions that I value and I know some of you have experience using these products in the 70's/80's.
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Can you talk about your thoughts about going from conventional guns to HVLP....did your technique change very much?
Does it take more skill or different technique to shoot a single stage job without having over spray dry spots from shooting different parts of the car?
Does anyone still shoot single stage anymore?
If clear coat is so much better why does it seem that clear coat seems to de laminate when it fails?

I know these are all novice questions........but I'm trying to learn..........

Thanks

sandybob
 
sandybob said:
Can you talk about your thoughts about going from conventional guns to HVLP....did your technique change very much?
Does it take more skill or different technique to shoot a single stage job without having over spray dry spots from shooting different parts of the car?
Does anyone still shoot single stage anymore?
If clear coat is so much better why does it seem that clear coat seems to de laminate when it fails?

I know these are all novice questions........but I'm trying to learn..........

Thanks

sandybob
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I'm old enough that when I was getting into this some siphon feed guns were still in use. Technique is still the same essentially. Biggest difference between siphon feed guns and HVLP/Gravity guns was the drastic reduction in overspray and the amount of material used was drastically reduced as well. Overspray reduction and material savings. Plus gun cleanup is so much easier than with a siphon feed gun. Lighter weight and better balance are two more bonuses of a gravity feed gun.

Dry spots from overspray when doing an overall is a result of poor technique or planning. It has nothing to do with the gun.

Lots of SS is still used. Mainly solid colors. Metallics are usually BC/CC because of the DOI of a BC/CC metallic is superior to SS metallic and it is harder to shoot a SS metallic and much harder to repair.

As for delamination, when a clear delaminates that is the last stage of failure. It was already failing before that. Most delamination is usually brought about by the millage of the clear being too thin. There are other causes but lack of millage is the main one.

Oh and I can guarantee that if the author of that article had ever had to spray any synthetic enamel he wouldn't be so nostalgic about the "good ole days":) Like I said above the only good thing from the old days was lacquer and that was because of how it looked.
 
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Chris_Hamilton said:
I'm old enough that when I was getting into this some siphon feed guns were still in use. Technique is still the same essentially. Biggest difference between siphon feed guns and HVLP/Gravity guns was the drastic reduction in overspray and the amount of material used was drastically reduced as well. Overspray reduction and material savings. Plus gun cleanup is so much easier than with a siphon feed gun. Lighter weight and better balance are two more bonuses of a gravity feed gun.

Dry spots from overspray when doing an overall is a result of poor technique or planning. It has nothing to do with the gun.

Lots of SS is still used. Mainly solid colors. Metallics are usually BC/CC because of the DOI of a BC/CC metallic is superior to SS metallic and it is harder to shoot a SS metallic and much harder to repair.

As for delamination, when a clear delaminates that is the last stage of failure. It was already failing before that. Most delamination is usually brought about by the millage of the clear being too thin. There are other causes but lack of millage is the main one.

Oh and I can guarantee that if the author of that article had ever had to spray any synthetic enamel he wouldn't be so nostalgic about the "good ole days":) Like I said above the only good thing from the old days was lacquer and that was because of how it looked.
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Thanks for the reply.....clears thing up..(pun intended)...I too am old enough to remember siphon feed guns....I am not a pro but I did take some classes back in the day. We used Binks guns and shot just enamel from different manufacturers as most of what we shot was donated to the school. There was no SAS systems and we just used respirators. A few years later I restored a 70 Mach 1 and I did not paint it but had a friend who knew a local painter from a local Dealership. He painted that car with Dupont Imron which was fairly new at the time. He had converted a large single car garage into a paint booth behind his house. My friend and I fully prepped the car and he shot it. Turned out great, he was really good. But I still remember to this day what that painter looked like after he had finished. He looked like he was about to pass out and was white as a ghost. He used only a respirator and the exhaust fan was tiny and one of those that turns real slow. I paid him what we agreed on and felt so guilty about how he looked I paid him an extra 300 that I had. I have an SAS system that I use for everything now. Lesson learned........
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One thing I do remember about Imron was that it was tough as nails and really hard.....when it chipped it chipped big.
One last question about clear coat since you said it failed from being applied too thin. How thick does the factory apply it?

Thanks again....

sandybob
 
Imo, factory delams were caused by a couple things, mainly millage due to cost cutting, but there were material changes and EPA fines involved as well. Many delams that I see are caused by shops that engage in cost-cutting measures. Cheap clears can look great when they go out the door, but they will lack UV additives as well as mil thickness. Repaints are our biggest headache to fix. I think the OEM delams have mostly been fixed, unless there has been a new round of EPA regulations that forces them to experiment again.
 
Lots of 98-2009 gm cars with clear peeling, always looks like there wasn't enough applied, same for later toyotas, prob plenty others too but just my casual observation. Seems in the last ten years or so they have been improving. Earlier than that goes without saying...
 
I have zero faith in the newer cars being any better. I don't know how many I have tried to feather out the base and clear over the factory primer that just wouldn't feather with 320. Many I can scrape the paint off with my fingernail. They are future peelers for sure, and they rock chip very easy.
 
So do we buy a vehicle then pull it in the garage and shoot a few more coats of clear !? Would look a helluva lot better but would delaminnation problems still exist ?
 
Dave C 5 said:
So do we buy a vehicle then pull it in the garage and shoot a few more coats of clear !? Would look a helluva lot better but would delaminnation problems still exist ?
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That is a really good question. I have seen 2020's (several different makes) doing what I described above. It seems the base has poor adhesion to the primer, without having had much time for the clear to allow the base to delam. Either the clear has very little UV protection, or the base adhesion is bad initially. I just did a 2008 Titan for a customer that bought a new one for his wife. Less than 5,000 freeway miles and it was covered in chips already. I would guess at least 50. I am sure a few more coats of clear would help, but whether it would keep the base from peeling off the primer down the road is the million dollar question. Here are some pics of the Titan. I do a bunch of these clear peelers.
 

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I have seen the same thing on a wide range of vehicles 2008, 2009 on up to current year, although Ford seems the worst. When trying to feather out base, and sometimes the 2nd layer of primer will just tear and can be scraped off with your fingernail.
 
Base is put on in 1 coat? Single stage never fades? ...ok. maybe his base clears fail cause hes only using 1 coat by his own words and not been around long enough to see single stages fade. I was constany polishing my red single stage paint.
 
Only red that I know of that won't fade given time and exposure is red original Imron, BC and single stage reds and silvers fade, some are much better than others. Cheap paint is gonna fade quickly regardless if it's BC or SS.

I should say Imron hardly fades, I wouldn't say never but I've seen some pretty old that hasn't faded noticeably. Don't have any Imron red metallic to judge by. But those silvers seemed to last forever.
 
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