Sparky
Promoted Users
Very good point. I can see the metal expand and close the gap before I let it puddle and fuse. Thanks for the tip!
Opinions of my door skin patch
- Thread starter Sparky
- Start date
Very good point. I can see the metal expand and close the gap before I let it puddle and fuse. Thanks for the tip!
Sparky
Promoted Users
Nice work John!I hesitated to mention this as I thought you guys would think I'm nuts but.........I use a number two tip for body panels. A #00 that a lot of guys use puts out enough velocity that it would pop or blow out due to how far you have to turn it up. The #2 allows me to turn the torch down for a soft flame with enough heat for a quick weld. Also, I like 3/32 CC rods that I can brush the flame up on as well as absorbing some heat when needed thus allowing me to take the heat away from the panel as needed. Doing the "dance" between rod and panel and air is what makes for a good penetrating weld without a tremendous amount of weld needing ground.
No way do I claim my method is best. It is what I came up with in about 1980 when I became interested in metal forming and what I became comfortable with.
Here is a section of my floorboard I tipped the edge with gas and gas welded on the '53. It allowed me to make this panel in one piece and move the weld away from the bend.
Bare in mind, this was a floorboard for what will be a nice driver. My goal was not to make a fusion weld that could be metal finished.
John
I was using a SW203 in my bigger torch body initially, its rated up to 5/64". When I found the AW1A small torch body on ebay, I also found two discontinued tips for it, the AW202 and the smallest AW2000. The AW2000 is a tiny tip, and it kept back firing when the heat reflected back from the sheet metal (I had it adjusted for a neutral flame), I cant even find any data for this tip, maybe its for making jewlery or something? The AW202 is nice, its rated for up to 1/16" and is what I have been using. It takes about 3-4 seconds to make a puddle in 18ga sheet metal.
Sparky
Promoted Users
Ok I fitted the door and fenders on the car, and confirmed my concern that the area around the patch I welded in does not have enough crown. It’s shrunk too much, and I can now see that I did not put enough crown in the patch before I started welding. I am developing a new found respect for competent panel beaters.
I’ve been studying the DVD series I just received from Peter Tommasini, (big thanks to Chis Hamilton for the recommendation) and can see it is best if I can get to both sides to work the metal. At this point this door is my practice piece, so I’m thinking it may be best to remove the skin from the frame and practice. Worst case I need to buy a new skin. The next car I work on, a repo skin might not be an option, so a little practice here may be another feather in my cap.
You can see how far it is off from the fender at the middle body line. The top and bottom are even door to fender.
The hot shrinks I did, did not help this either. The high spots should have been worked down and the low areas up. I screwed up and shrunk it too much.
When I hold the straight edge up the doors have almost no crown front to back. As I move it over the repair area and hold the rule flat on the rest of the door, you can see the amount the repair dropped.
The top of the door meets the fender good, and the rule shows how little crown the door has.
Does anyone agree this door skin should come off to even attempt anymore repairs. There’s just not enough room to get a dolly in the last 4 inches of the edge because of the inner structure?
Chris
I’ve been studying the DVD series I just received from Peter Tommasini, (big thanks to Chis Hamilton for the recommendation) and can see it is best if I can get to both sides to work the metal. At this point this door is my practice piece, so I’m thinking it may be best to remove the skin from the frame and practice. Worst case I need to buy a new skin. The next car I work on, a repo skin might not be an option, so a little practice here may be another feather in my cap.
You can see how far it is off from the fender at the middle body line. The top and bottom are even door to fender.
The hot shrinks I did, did not help this either. The high spots should have been worked down and the low areas up. I screwed up and shrunk it too much.
When I hold the straight edge up the doors have almost no crown front to back. As I move it over the repair area and hold the rule flat on the rest of the door, you can see the amount the repair dropped.
The top of the door meets the fender good, and the rule shows how little crown the door has.
Does anyone agree this door skin should come off to even attempt anymore repairs. There’s just not enough room to get a dolly in the last 4 inches of the edge because of the inner structure?
Chris
John Long
Member
I personally disagree. If you want to do it over, cut out your patch 1” larger than this one and you will be outside the area that has shrunk. Make your new patch a little larger and plan for the shrinkage. You will just be out the labor to do it twice and will not have to worry about damage or issues taking off the skin and replacing it.
John
John
JimKueneman
Mopar Nut
I just ordered that CD as well. I just inquired about The Tin Man's 4 day class in California as well. I have a good handle on everything but the metal work in my restorations. I end up making a bigger mess so I am just getting it close and not being afraid of the filler for the Dart 
MP&C
Member
Chris, what was the need for these shrinks?
Looking at the next picture, the red line shows the weld seam, which is where the majority of the shrinking occurs. The yellow line is outside the heat affected zone enough that no shrinking occurs out here... The area between the two lines is caught between two differing forces. The red area wants to shrink, the yellow wants to remain unaffected, and the area between forms a sinusoidal wave (up and down) as it's caught in the middle. So if you see what from outward appearances looks like high spots , it is the metal distorting from adjacent area shrinking. Fix it by stretching the weld that has shrunk. You'll see those "high" spots (that are actually high, low, high, low, repeat) start to disappear as the shrink is stretched back out. So point being, don't shrink any adjacent areas next to a weld that appear to be high spots. Stretch the weld, leave the other areas alone. If you look, the areas of these shrinks show the entire area to be low as compared to the fender. If this is what occurred, the wrong "repair" was used in shrinking high spots.
I'll agree with John, use this as a learning tool to cut out the damaged (shrunk) area and install new, larger patch. And as Chris Hamilton mentioned earlier, add the flange with the correct fold to match the opening to limit welding needed (and shrinking). Some hints that may help you see better success next time:
Once you cut out the shrunk door skin area, stretch out the inner door in the area of the previous weld until it raises to the proper level (compare to fender)
Form the repair patch with proper crease, proper crown, proper size... so that when it is trimmed and fitted in place it matches the fender profile but has no gaps to the door skin. Any gaps will more readily pull together as shrinking occurs, adding to a low area..
For your final trimming on both the door skin and the patch, use the offset shears that have the slightly "serrated" jaws as opposed to a smooth finish. These will actually add a slight amount of stretch when cut, to help out in negating some of the shrinking effect. You will surely need planishing (stretching) once weld is completed, but perhaps it won't be as much.
Looking at the next picture, the red line shows the weld seam, which is where the majority of the shrinking occurs. The yellow line is outside the heat affected zone enough that no shrinking occurs out here... The area between the two lines is caught between two differing forces. The red area wants to shrink, the yellow wants to remain unaffected, and the area between forms a sinusoidal wave (up and down) as it's caught in the middle. So if you see what from outward appearances looks like high spots , it is the metal distorting from adjacent area shrinking. Fix it by stretching the weld that has shrunk. You'll see those "high" spots (that are actually high, low, high, low, repeat) start to disappear as the shrink is stretched back out. So point being, don't shrink any adjacent areas next to a weld that appear to be high spots. Stretch the weld, leave the other areas alone. If you look, the areas of these shrinks show the entire area to be low as compared to the fender. If this is what occurred, the wrong "repair" was used in shrinking high spots.
I'll agree with John, use this as a learning tool to cut out the damaged (shrunk) area and install new, larger patch. And as Chris Hamilton mentioned earlier, add the flange with the correct fold to match the opening to limit welding needed (and shrinking). Some hints that may help you see better success next time:
Once you cut out the shrunk door skin area, stretch out the inner door in the area of the previous weld until it raises to the proper level (compare to fender)
Form the repair patch with proper crease, proper crown, proper size... so that when it is trimmed and fitted in place it matches the fender profile but has no gaps to the door skin. Any gaps will more readily pull together as shrinking occurs, adding to a low area..
For your final trimming on both the door skin and the patch, use the offset shears that have the slightly "serrated" jaws as opposed to a smooth finish. These will actually add a slight amount of stretch when cut, to help out in negating some of the shrinking effect. You will surely need planishing (stretching) once weld is completed, but perhaps it won't be as much.
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John Long
Member
Good information Robert. My concern was Chris (Sparky) stated he had no access for a dolly in the 4 inch area. This is going to make it much more challenging as he welds and the metal tries to pull. If I were doing it with out access to the back side I probably would leave a .0030 gap just to be sure it would not pull an overlap while tacking. I also would start with my repair a tad proud knowing it is going to pull down some.
Chris, is there any chance you could open up an access area on the inner door frame that would allow you to do as Robert suggested and get a dolly in there so you could planish it as you go?
John
Chris, is there any chance you could open up an access area on the inner door frame that would allow you to do as Robert suggested and get a dolly in there so you could planish it as you go?
John
Chris_Hamilton
Trying to be the best me, I can be
In addition to the excellent advice Robert and John have given I would say that there is a time and place for everything. Meaning that this is a rather difficult repair to make with the torch and would be much better suited for a MIG. With the proper technique you could MIG that patch in with very little distortion. Almost none if you do it right. Being that you have a portion of it that you can't get a dolly behind is why I would MIG it. Gas you are always going to get distortion which is easy to correct if you can access the backside completely. My fear would be that you re-do the patch larger and it does the same thing again and not being able to planish the edge you end up with a similar situation.
Not trying to discourage you from gas welding it just sharing my thoughts.
Is there any space between the inner frame and the skin at the edge? If there is you could fashion up a slapper out of a leaf spring and use that as a dolly to stretch that edge.
Not trying to discourage you from gas welding it just sharing my thoughts.
Is there any space between the inner frame and the skin at the edge? If there is you could fashion up a slapper out of a leaf spring and use that as a dolly to stretch that edge.
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Sparky
Promoted Users
Thanks for the input guys.
Robert and John- I will try your advice and cut out the patch and follow your instructions. The shrinks that Robert asked about were my attempt, and it was successful, to pull down the popped up high spot distortion caused by the patch welding. I can see now that was a key mistake I made. I should have focused more on the zones you pointed out.
I can cut out a section of the inner frame if I needed to, but I like Chris’ suggestion on using a mig for this particular patch. I do have a Tig also, perhaps the Tig may work also.
I was also perplexed on how much the inner structure shrunk to compared to the fender. I figured this had enough rigidity to hold its shape, but apparently not. Again this was a previous repair I don’t know what happened to this area before I got to it.
As much as a little devil this is, I’m enjoying the process. One big learning experience.
I will post my progress
Robert and John- I will try your advice and cut out the patch and follow your instructions. The shrinks that Robert asked about were my attempt, and it was successful, to pull down the popped up high spot distortion caused by the patch welding. I can see now that was a key mistake I made. I should have focused more on the zones you pointed out.
I can cut out a section of the inner frame if I needed to, but I like Chris’ suggestion on using a mig for this particular patch. I do have a Tig also, perhaps the Tig may work also.
I was also perplexed on how much the inner structure shrunk to compared to the fender. I figured this had enough rigidity to hold its shape, but apparently not. Again this was a previous repair I don’t know what happened to this area before I got to it.
As much as a little devil this is, I’m enjoying the process. One big learning experience.
I will post my progress
JimKueneman
Mopar Nut
Bummer..... Reply from the Tin Man.....
Thank you for your interest in the Tm Tech. workshops!
Unfortunately, Kent is taking a break from workshops to focus on other projects. He will be doing some private one-on-one sessions by the hour or day.
However, we have a wide selection of DVDs for sale/to rent. Here is a link to our website with the DVD available.
https://www.tinmantech.com/products/dvds/
Please, let us know if you have any other questions!
Thank you,
Thank you for your interest in the Tm Tech. workshops!
Unfortunately, Kent is taking a break from workshops to focus on other projects. He will be doing some private one-on-one sessions by the hour or day.
However, we have a wide selection of DVDs for sale/to rent. Here is a link to our website with the DVD available.
https://www.tinmantech.com/products/dvds/
Please, let us know if you have any other questions!
Thank you,
Chris_Hamilton
Trying to be the best me, I can be
Jim AFAIK Kent is involved with the restoration of an Airplane and is going to be busy most of this year.
Order these videos to get you started. Trust me you will not be disappointed and you will learn a lot.
David Gardiner's BODYWORK RESTORATION TUTORIAL DVD
metalshapingzone.com
It is well worth the money (reasonably priced as well)
I can't say enough good things about Peter Tommasini
Get the entire 10 DVD set. It will be the best money you've spent if you are trying to learn metalshaping. DVD's 7,8,9 He breaks down step by step him making a complete quarter panel in one piece for a '60's Holden Monaro (Aussie Chevelle). He is very good at teaching and explaining the process. Just get it, watch it and be amazed how much you learn from it.
10 DVD set is $410 Australian dollars which as of today translates to around $270 USD. A bargain for the knowledge he shares in those DVD's.
Added bonus is that after watching those DVD's you will be much better prepared to take a Instructional Class with Kent or others.
Order these videos to get you started. Trust me you will not be disappointed and you will learn a lot.
David Gardiner's BODYWORK RESTORATION TUTORIAL DVD
DVD
metalshapingzone.com
It is well worth the money (reasonably priced as well)
I can't say enough good things about Peter Tommasini
Get the entire 10 DVD set. It will be the best money you've spent if you are trying to learn metalshaping. DVD's 7,8,9 He breaks down step by step him making a complete quarter panel in one piece for a '60's Holden Monaro (Aussie Chevelle). He is very good at teaching and explaining the process. Just get it, watch it and be amazed how much you learn from it.
10 DVD set is $410 Australian dollars which as of today translates to around $270 USD. A bargain for the knowledge he shares in those DVD's.
Added bonus is that after watching those DVD's you will be much better prepared to take a Instructional Class with Kent or others.
JimKueneman
Mopar Nut
The first one is on a boat crossing the Atlantic already.
Sparky
Promoted Users
Just got done watching all 10 of Peters DVD's. All I can say is wow! Peter swings a hammer with impressive force and stamina. He's a human powerhammer! All kidding aside, I really like his explanations and way of teaching. I'm starting to watch them again to pick up on the finer details and to start practicing his techniques. I havent started my patch on my door skin yet as I want to work out some practice first.
I do have one question though if anyone knows, I notice Peter would use his tree stump or sometimes the sand bag to do hammer blocking when roughing out a bulbous shape in one of the lessons. I did not pick up on the reason you would use one over the other. any thoughts?
Chris
I do have one question though if anyone knows, I notice Peter would use his tree stump or sometimes the sand bag to do hammer blocking when roughing out a bulbous shape in one of the lessons. I did not pick up on the reason you would use one over the other. any thoughts?
Chris
Chris_Hamilton
Trying to be the best me, I can be
Chris if you go here:https://ce8df029be3e-004671.vbulletin.net/ you can ask Peter yourself. That is his forum that he recently created. He has some good info on there and he posts and answers other peoples posts. It's called MetalShaper's Hub.
Sparky
Promoted Users
cool thanks
MP&C
Member
Chris, I would say the bag is going to be used as a backer when you need to add LOTS of shape. The flat part of the stump can be used as a backer to add low crown, as you’d find in a door skin. Keep in mind that this would require OCD attention paid to consistency, in both overlap / spacing of the hits and amount of swing. David Gardiner shows similar in hammering a flat panel on a steel plate to add low crown.
MikeS
Camaro Nut
I’m not going to offer opinions on what to do with the welding because it’s been covered already. But, I do want to offer my experience I had with my 67 Camaro restoration recently in regards to the door after seeing your picture with rust in the lower front edge. After my car was completely painted and buffed (it took me a couple of years to get to that stage), while installing the lower rally sport molding on the passenger door, much to my shock I noticed an artifact in the paint and could feel it. Using a magnifying glass, my heart sank as I realized it was a tiny speck of rust that came through the paint. The rust location was the front lower door edge where the door skin wraps around the door body frame. That is an area you can’t see anything from inside the door so I suspect there was more rust brewing. This speck of rust was hidden by the molding but I knew it was there and didn’t want to have that notorious nagging feeling when you know a defect exists. I decided to buy an AMD door skin and replace it. The AMD panel fit like a glove and required no major tweaks. I also had replaced the driver’s door skin earlier prior to painting the car initially for the same reason, but at that time the passenger door looked fine.
I used 3M panel bonding adhesive along the skin and panel edges to set the skin and used a pneumatic door edge crimper to lock it in place. I had a quart of base left over so I didn’t worry about color matching. When I removed the original skin, sure enough that whole hidden area was full of rust and it was a matter of time before more came through the paint. With the skin off I was able to gently sand blast the rusty metal on the door frame part and use an epoxy primer. After everything was completed I sprayed cavity wax inside the door cavity to prevent future rust.
I used 3M panel bonding adhesive along the skin and panel edges to set the skin and used a pneumatic door edge crimper to lock it in place. I had a quart of base left over so I didn’t worry about color matching. When I removed the original skin, sure enough that whole hidden area was full of rust and it was a matter of time before more came through the paint. With the skin off I was able to gently sand blast the rusty metal on the door frame part and use an epoxy primer. After everything was completed I sprayed cavity wax inside the door cavity to prevent future rust.
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Sparky
Promoted Users
Thanks Robert for the info, that makes sense and as I start to practice this work, I’m sure it will become evident. I’m gonna stitch up a leather sand bag tonight.
thanks for the info Mike. I think you are right, on the passengers door I did a small corner patch at the rear of the door and after I cut out the area there was more rust evident than I could initially see. I cleaned it good, but wondered about the rest of the lower seam. I expect by the end of this I’ll be replacing both skins as you did. Last thing I want is what you ran into, rust coming through the new paint. My father always told me do it right, or do it twice. Thing is I’m in the learning stage of knowing what is right. Thanks to all you guys sharing your knowledge, my learning curve will be hopefully shorter.
thanks again
Chris
thanks for the info Mike. I think you are right, on the passengers door I did a small corner patch at the rear of the door and after I cut out the area there was more rust evident than I could initially see. I cleaned it good, but wondered about the rest of the lower seam. I expect by the end of this I’ll be replacing both skins as you did. Last thing I want is what you ran into, rust coming through the new paint. My father always told me do it right, or do it twice. Thing is I’m in the learning stage of knowing what is right. Thanks to all you guys sharing your knowledge, my learning curve will be hopefully shorter.
thanks again
Chris
Sparky
Promoted Users
Ok I’m back, did a 4 month prep for the end of the world, food storage, gardens, build a greenhouse, etc. Now back to the bird.
removed the skin and just like MikeS above advised, the whole skin flange is rusted on the inside.
I’m gonna move this back over to my restoration thread for this car, as the torch work is done for now.
Thanks for the help!
removed the skin and just like MikeS above advised, the whole skin flange is rusted on the inside.
I’m gonna move this back over to my restoration thread for this car, as the torch work is done for now.
Thanks for the help!