PHIX corrosion treatment-tests

[Bob Hollinshead]

Has anyone here used PHIX corrosion treatment under SPI epoxy?? I sprayed some test panels and will post the results. The product looks promising in that it fends off corrosion while project cars are in bare metal, removes rust, and supposedly increases primer adhesion. I'll post up some test panel photos soon. http://www.ppcbest.com/phix_treatment.htm The test panels include rusty steel sheetmetal, rustfree steel sheetmetal, and galvanized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_G1k0vGBmo

 

[Barry]

Never heard of it Bob, sounds good but only problem I have right now without testing is this company, like most companies that sell stuff like this make nothing they sell and really don't know what they sell.
Last i hear por15 both black and gray were available under almost 20 labels. If you cant convince them, confuse them!

Test would be, two coats epoxy and a razor scrape in 7 days.
If that works, then I will get some and put through the test.

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

Here is the MSDS for Phix, it does have phosphoric acid and zinc phosphate in it: http://www.ppcbest.com/pdf/phix_data.pdf

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

Chevman brought this to our attention in this other thread: http://www.spiuserforum.com/showthread.php?2603-Correct-prep-before-SPI-epoxy-primer&p=38304#post38304

And he sent me some to do some testing. I've been in touch with the chemist that developed Phix and asked if there's any precautions using this product, he responded with the following:

I formulated this product in August 1982, and began selling it in September 1982. Since that time we have had body shops and manufacturers across the U.S. using this product to prepare all metals for painting or processing.

Phix will dissolve red (flash) rust usually within several minutes, and will protect the steel or iron indefinitely while awaiting the next step, epoxy primer. I use PPG's DP series. It will also allow anyone to remove more serious rust by following the directions and referring to the videos on our website.

One basic step MUST be followed - remove all wet residue as the directions say, using paper towels (VIVA recommended).

NEVER apply body filler or any polyester-based primer over PHIX - it won't stick! ALWAYS apply epoxy primer, then filler or polyester-based high-build primer.

There is no rush after treating metal with PHIX. I recently painted a car that had sat in my shop for 19 years without paint. I merely wiped with prep solvent and fnally applied epoxy primer, etc., with no problems.

Hopefully this gives you some insight into the versatility of our product. Unfortunately there are a lot of hard-headed people who will never get the point, but the ones who do love us for this product!

You should find the adhesion for PHIX to be outstanding, as others have found a 30-80% greater adhesion factor for various paint systems.

Besides owning PPC and having formulated every product for us and others under private contract (I have 47 years as a chemist) I have been restoring cars for over 52 years abnd have been doing nothing but total frame-off work since 1984.

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

I decided to test the product for rust removal and compared it to the product I normally use Prep & etch made by klean-strip. Phix does remove corrosion, light corrosion comes off easily and heavier corrosion does turn black the same as what naval jelly, prep&etch, and other phosphoric products do. From what I've read the corrosion changes to iron phosphate which makes it easier to remove. Speedwise I spent one hour with both the Phix and prep&etch and ended up with similar results. Phix leaves an etched on grey coating that I assume is zinc phosphate and the anti-corrosion element of this product. I also tried the product over sandblasted steel, clean steel, and galvanized. I included two non-coated panels in the test and epoxy primered all. These will set for a few weeks to cure. I'll then do a scratch and tape test, feathering test, and will probably hit them with my 12 guage and 6 shot to measure chip size. Does anyone else have any suggestions for testing?

 

[chevman]

Thanks Bob for taking time to do this, I'm sure everyone recognizes the experience and integrity that you bring to a test, and we all appreciate what you are doing.

Personally, I think bare metal protection and epoxy adhesion will be the real tests.

 

[Barry]

Bob,
If he states, you cannot put filler or polyester over it as will not stick then neither will epoxy.
The difference is you may get 30-50% adhesion with epoxy and think you have full adhesion but you do not.
It is most likely made by the same company that private labels for every other tom dick and harry out there.

 

[shine]

phosphoric acid is phosphoric acid no matter what wetting agent is used . if your hell bent to use acid then use it but do not believe all the claims by these marketers. i use milkstone on all kinds of stuff. but i do not use it under epoxy unless i am 100% sure i rinsed it off completely while wet. even then i worry .

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

I agree and avoid metal preps in general, normally any phosphic acid I use gets a good water wash while still wet and another sanding before I apply primer. But given the zinc coating this stuff seems to leave I figured it's worth a shot-maybe it's different. I won't experiment to this degree on a car but if the tests show positive results I'll play with it some more. I do see uses for it even if it isn't compatible with the products and procedures I already have in place. If it's a removable/cleanable coating for long term bare metal projects that would be fine. Also, there are alot of bare metal parts on a perfect resto where this would be good+oiling, much better looking than cast blast or any of the
faux metal paints. I've seen numerous metal prep nightmares in the past-enough to be very wary.

 

[chevman]

There is a link to another thread posted up above, and in that thread Bob said he might do some testing on this product. So I just want to make it clear for his sake, that I didn't just ask him---out of the clear blue---to test something. I thought that if he was willing to do the testing, then I would send him what I had already bought for my own test. I know his will be better, and more thorough than any I can do, but I'm sure he doesn't have time to test everything we would like to know about. So don't fill his shop with samples to test. LOL

I think this stuff might be a great help to all of us in several ways, if it actually works and doesn't cause any problems, after all epoxy itself was new to us at one time. On the other hand, we already have a lot of things that can go wrong and don't need to add to that list, and that is why I'm so glad Bob is willing to do this. Its been on the market for several years, so when I first mentioned it, I was hoping there would a few guys already using it with SPI epoxy.

The label says "Out performs all acid based metal preps" and that lead me to believe it didn't have any acid.
But as someone once said----ignore the label, read the data sheets---maybe I will remember that now.

I guess we will soon know how well it performs,

 

[Barry]

Looks to be the same as six other products out there with different labels, the most popular one is referred to in my post of number one problem calls at over a 100 a year.
Just goes to show, the BS these company's will put out, when all they can do is slap a label on a product that is the same as a dozen other products.

Acid film is acid film and a different name does not change the end result, nothing more tried and true than Ospho that has been neutralized properly and its cheaper.

 

[shine]

ospho , naval jelly and the like have been around forever . i switched to milkstone because of the cost . there is nothing new about acid and these new and improved snake oils are nothing more than marketing labels. as i've said many times there is nothing wrong with phosphoric acid if used properly . but every time a label is changed it becomes the newest holy grail and will spread like wildfire on the net. problem is hundreds of hobbyist will believe this hype and end up with a disaster they can not afford to fix. when on a tight budget they do not need to look up and need to strip and start over.

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

I did my normal fingernail test on the epoxy to check how the cure is going and it ain't looking good for adhesion on the Phix coated panels. Still, I'll let the cure up for a couple of weeks and continue the tests.

 

[Barry]

Bob,
You know i have the equipment to test this but i don't need to as I know the results, without testing.
That is why when the chemist said to you, he put it on his car and worked fine, sure went against the grain of normal testing procedures and struck me as pure bull on many fronts from someone that does not have a clue.

Testing at home is never good idea from standpoint, what are you testing for and there are thousands of tests for normal testing that the average person cannot do.
My standard testing manual: "Paint and Coatings Testing Manual" Fourteenth edition is 925 pages of small print.

Here is a good test for acid film if you do not have an adhesion tester.

Treat half panel with your solution and the other half in your normal manner, spray 2 coats of epoxy over the panel and let set for 30 days.
Outside epoxy should feel hard and strong like normal at this time.
Mix body filler and dab in different spot over the panel 1 inch wide and 1 inch high blobs here and there.
Let set 15 to 30 minutes to till body filler is normal temp.
Get a flat head screw driver and lay head at bottom of filler , slide under filler and epoxy and twist up at same time, the acid part will poop off and the epoxy will be melted at the metal, the regular part will not come off with out hitting with hammer and still not want to come off.

 

[shine]

the bondo blob will tell you if it stuck ( almost) but it wont tell you about the big ass bubble your going to get in summer.

i do not get it . why would anyone risk a major failure over these snake oils ?

 

[Barry]

the bondo blob will tell you if it stuck ( almost) but it wont tell you about the big ass bubble your going to get in summer.

i do not get it . why would anyone risk a major failure over these snake oils ?

Shine, have you not read some of these ads that the companies that sell these snake oil write?
They are good and I have been temped to buy some. LOL
Most people don't know the history of the companies involved or the fact that most of this stuff is made by two companies for everyone to put their label on it because they are not in the manufacturing business.
If your in the manufacturing side, there are no secrets as chemical reps that call on me, call on the majors also.

 

[shine]

now dont try to tell me eastwood doesn't make their own paint !

 

[crashtech]

OEMs use (or used to use) a light etch bath followed by a passivation bath that would deposit a thin layer of zinc phosphate or chromate on the metal surface, but their processes are very carefully controlled, and hard to duplicate in a shop environment. I think if someone is determined to do this, staying with a two step process is still best because the weaker acidity of the passivation step is easier to completely neutralize. If the old PPG method is followed exactly, except for the refinish material, good results might be achieved:

www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheets/PPG/Automotive/Deltron/P-226.pdf

SPI won't endorse or warranty such a method, I just put it out here for reading and discussion. What I have found is that all this messing around with acidic liquids is just not necessary, as long as you sand and clean the metal properly and prime the bare metal quickly, in the same day is best.

That's why the recommendation is to only strip what you can quickly prime, for many hobbyists this means one panel at a time. It's just plain stupid to get a whole body in bare metal and just let it sit, imo.

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

now dont try to tell me eastwood doesn't make their own paint !

LOL. I'd bet money on knowing what the results will be but we'll see, I'm not going to bad mouth this product without trying it.

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

Well, it's been about 4 weeks since the test panels were sprayed, a week ago I sanded a spot on each with 180 grit and applied a blob of bodyfiller. Today I knocked the filler off each one with a block of wood and a hammer. Filler adhesion to the epoxy was as normal-the bond to the epoxy was stronger than the filler itself. One of the PHIX treated panels showed poor primer adhesion with some of the epoxy coming off with the filler. The duct tape scratch test went fine on all panels with to primer pulling up with the tape. Scratching with a screwdriver showed a jagged primer edge supporting less adhesion on the PHIX treated panels. And the shotgun showed a larger chip size on the PHIX treated panels. IMO there's a loss of adhesion using PHIX based on what I seen.