English Wheel run out question

MJM

MJM

Promoted Users
Purchased an English Wheel as a Christmas gift for myself. Before unboxing everything and assembling it, I pulled the top 8" wheel out of the box to check the face and side of the wheel for run out. The face of the wheel is within half a thousand on the entire width, and side play is 6 thousand at it's worst spot. Should I be concerned with the side play of 6 thousand? I was contemplating on removing the wheel from the mounting bracket and lightly tapping the bearing at the 6 thousand mark to see if I can improve the side to side run out if it's needed?

Your thoughts?

Face of wheel

Side play
 
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I don't think it will be a issue. It will probably flex/deflect much more than the .006 when you are using it. Not seeing the actual frame I can't say for sure but nearly all the fabricated steel ones out there will flex quite a bit. Some worse than others. Try getting a piece of steel sheet and tracking it back and forth in straight lines from one end (side) to the other. Use light pressure and a relatively low crown anvil. See if you can track straight lines or if it goes off center. If you can track straight or close to straight that is about all you can hope for with a fab'ed wheel. Good luck.:)

Here is a link to Geoff Moss wheeling a panel. It's a 5 part video and you can learn a lot about proper wheeling and what to do and not to do. Geoff is a Master and it's well worth viewing as he breaks it down nicely and you can see what proper technique when wheeling looks like.

I hope to travel to England in 2023 and spend a week learning from Geoff. True master. Worked at Aston back when they handbuilt everything. If a guy could make it there, they were some of the best.

Part 1 (part 2 and so on will autoplay after you view it)
 
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Thanks for the link, Chris.

Yes I purchased a cheaper model English Wheel. I didn't see a need at this point in time buying an expensive one.

I will be adding a new back bone and stiffing up the "C" frame. I knew this going in purchasing a inferior English Wheel but, it'll serve its purpose as a training ad to get my feet wet.

Thanks for the response.
 
Okay, assembled the English Wheel and have another question. Should the lower anvil be able to move ( see video ).....or should it be in a fixed stationary position?

 
MJM said:
Okay, assembled the English Wheel and have another question. Should the lower anvil be able to move ( see video ).....or should it be in a fixed stationary position?

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Most definitely shouldn't be doing that. It should be in a fixed position parallel/in line with the top wheel. Hopefully you can fix it without too much issue.
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
I don't think it will be a issue. It will probably flex/deflect much more than the .006 when you are using it.
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Looks like a Harbor Freight wheel from the bright yellow paint? I have an older one from around 12-15 years ago, it's just ok for small panels. I put a dial indicator on the frame and can open it up something like .050-.060" just pushing the top and bottom apart by hand, they definitely need reinforcing. Our cast iron Dake #1 arbor press only flexes a few thousands with all my 170 pounds on the handle in comparison. I haven't measured how much the frame flexes under enough tension to shape 18g steel, but definitely enough to throw off the wheel alignment a bit. The full radius dies kind of make that a non-issue though; the contact patch is always touching the same radius on the lower wheel even if the angle between the top and bottom wheels has changed due to deflection.

The "toe" alignment of mine is way off, like in your video. It's bad enough that I can't make a pass over ~15" without the wheels getting in a bind from tracking at different angles. You'll have to make a way to keep the wheels tracking in the same plane or else they'll bind up and twist the frame, and you won't get consistent results with it. I've never been able to get consistent tracking with mine to make a low crown panel like a door skin.

I'm not sure that mine has helped me learn to use an english wheel all that much since it doesn't really behave like an english wheel should lol. I'm sure with enough modifications and bracing it can be a usable wheel for bigger projects.
 
John, Peter Tommasini still has some wheels available. He's semi retired now so it's doubtful he will make anymore. You wouldn't regret it.
 
theastronaut said:
Looks like a Harbor Freight wheel from the bright yellow paint? I have an older one from around 12-15 years ago, it's just ok for small panels. I put a dial indicator on the frame and can open it up something like .050-.060" just pushing the top and bottom apart by hand, they definitely need reinforcing. Our cast iron Dake #1 arbor press only flexes a few thousands with all my 170 pounds on the handle in comparison. I haven't measured how much the frame flexes under enough tension to shape 18g steel, but definitely enough to throw off the wheel alignment a bit. The full radius dies kind of make that a non-issue though; the contact patch is always touching the same radius on the lower wheel even if the angle between the top and bottom wheels has changed due to deflection.

The "toe" alignment of mine is way off, like in your video. It's bad enough that I can't make a pass over ~15" without the wheels getting in a bind from tracking at different angles. You'll have to make a way to keep the wheels tracking in the same plane or else they'll bind up and twist the frame, and you won't get consistent results with it. I've never been able to get consistent tracking with mine to make a low crown panel like a door skin.

I'm not sure that mine has helped me learn to use an english wheel all that much since it doesn't really behave like an english wheel should lol. I'm sure with enough modifications and bracing it can be a usable wheel for bigger projects.
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Yes, it's a Harbor Freight English Wheel. It's been upgraded from the one you own. Both the upper wheel and lower wheel are adjustable for alignment.

The best I could get the lower wheel in a fixed position was 20 thousand of movement from the video above. Still not good enough for me so, I purchased some material yesterday to resolve that issue. I also purchased some 2x2x1/4" wall material make a new backbone. Just waiting on an Evolution metal chop to arrive for the fabrication. It's slated to be here the first week of January.

I'll post up pictures of the fabrication in this thread.

20 thousand movement after adjusting the lower die shaft.

Took the lower die saddle out of the fixture, and with a few smacks from a 2 pound sledge hammer, bent the saddle to a true 90 degrees so the lower wheel and upper wheel are flush and level to each other.
20221230_200811.jpg
 
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Chris_Hamilton said:
John, Peter Tommasini still has some wheels available. He's semi retired now so it's doubtful he will make anymore. You wouldn't regret it.
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We have a lead on what is supposedly a "large cast iron english wheel" that the guy's uncle bought at an antique store decades ago. The nephew that was at our shop recognized our Pullmax and english wheel and said he used to work in a metal fab shop so it seems like he knows what he's talking about. We're working on getting a date set to go check it out and see if it could be bought.
 
theastronaut said:
We have a lead on what is supposedly a "large cast iron english wheel" that the guy's uncle bought at an antique store decades ago. The nephew that was at our shop recognized our Pullmax and english wheel and said he used to work in a metal fab shop so it seems like he knows what he's talking about. We're working on getting a date set to go check it out and see if it could be bought.
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That awesome Astro. Finding a used cast iron one in the US is kinda like finding Bigfoot. Not many of them here. Hopefully the anvils are all there and in decent condition. I'd be surprised if they are though. I think Hoosier Profiles is still doing upper and lower anvils. There was some talk that they were going to stop so IDK.
 
Making progress. Cut and tacked in all the backbone pieces. The open "C" shape is now level or 90* to the backbone. Before I started the open "C" was a strong 1/8" out of level or 90* degrees to the backbone.

Next up is to modify the lower yoke so there is no movement in it. Stay tuned for more updates.

20230113_162252.jpg


20230113_162223.jpg
 
Lower yoke modification completed to the remove the 19 thousand turning movement. I also removed all the side to side play in the lower anvil. Added a spring to assist when lowering the yoke due to the snug fit of the new square tubing and round rod. Cut the welds off from the lower yoke to the base plate so the lower anvil could be re-aligned, then rewelded. Next up is to fabricate two lower legs with feet and install lifting casters.

Lower Anvil.jpg


lower anvil 2A.jpg


Lower anvil 3A.jpg


Lower anvil 4A.jpg


Lower anvil 5.jpg


Lower anvil 6.jpg
 
dhutton01 said:
Nice work. What color are you going to paint it? :)
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You ask the hard questions, lol

It won't be Yellow so you'll have to wait to see what color it will be. Still too cold out here for any paint work so it'll be another month or so.
 
Nice work! What PrimeWeld unit are you using? I recently purchased the MTS200 multiprocess unit.
 
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