Looking for websites that help members with sheet metal questions

This was posted by a gent in the thread I linked to above. It is very true. People get caught up thinking having a wheeling machine makes them a shaper or able to shape anything. Keep in mind the Italians who built some of the world's most beautiful cars never used a wheel. Most of those cars were done almost completely by hand. Scaglietti, Pininfarina etc.
"The English wheel takes years to master... years.....the most important thing to learn is what metal does when you work with it.
That is best learned with hand tools...Blocking hammers a sandbag and a tree stump. Those three tools are where you start and where you build your foundation.
Until you have a very good understanding of how metal works and reacts to achieve shapes an English wheel is almost useless.
Learn how metal reacts to achieve the shapes your making and use your current English Wheel just for smoothing up the panel you have created.
By the time you have learned how to do that then you will begin to understand the English Wheel a small amount.
Then you will have an idea of what you want and need in a better quality English Wheel.
Learn to crawl before you walk...learn to walk before you run.."
 
Looking for recommendation for sheet metal websites that help members with questions. It would be helpful if that website has an English Wheel forum. That is my main reason to learn some sheet metal technics.

Thank you,
What part of Missouri are you in? How far to Hastings NE?
 
Clint, a friend of mine in SC, is both a metalshaper and a granite sculptor. He has a saying, "Study the right experts and practice the right ways. Ignore & avoid the rest totally, completely and without exception. Choose your master wisely."

In order to fully understand the english wheel, you need to first understand metalshaping. I asked how close you were to Hastings as Pat Brubaker has a shop in Hastings NE and owns Imperial Wheeling Machines. He holds metalshaping classes on a regular basis, and would likely not teach use of the english wheel without teaching some basics first. Pat has travelled to my shop and taught a class, he does a good job of explaining for even the novice. For some youtube videos, I would echo those who already recommended watching Geoff Moss or Peter Tommasini. As to some of the others, some comments/concerns:

I have to give kudos to Fitzee in that he has likely single handedly gotten more people to work on their own restorations than anyone. Not that some of the methods aren't hackish. For example, he likes to keep things simple for the novice, so most panels with any folds are made in multiple pieces in the flat and welded together at the folds. The problem with welding on a corner is that when welds shrink (they do) it pulls/alters the corners for a less than accurate replacement. If you look at any fender built from scratch by a coach builder, welds are placed about an inch or more from any bodyline/crease so the weld can be planished. Weld location is as much a part of metalshaping as forming the metal.

Bad Chad.. Name says it all. Props to Jolene for the foresight to recognize the market potential for the trainwreck he was/is, she is why he has his own TV show.

Wray/proshaper we've discussed before, but to recap for posterity:

Anytime you add a crease or fold in a panel you are making it much more difficult, if not impossible to add any shape to the panel after the fact. I call these body creases/folds "locks" as they lock the panel down from any additional shape being introduced into that area. So when proshaper does a video on how to fabricate a motorcycle fender with a bead/crease along the centerline, that crease should be the absolute last detail added. He decided to add a ducktail at the bottom after the crease was put in down through the center. Quickly it becomes obvious that the extra shape needed on the sides to add the lower tail could not be put in effectively; the center crease should have been the absolute last thing put in and was not. So he painfully struggles through it and never once mentioned that the order should have been changed. A teaching moment missed.

Welding a patch in the top of a fender right up next to the mounting flange (think hood opening) is going to cause shrinking along the fold of that flange. As one would expect, the weld area shrunk, shortens up the fold, forcing it downward and forming a low spot at the top of the fender. He attempted to relieve this by hammering things upward by striking the lower edge of the flange. This introduces tension on the flange such that the extra metal now wants to accordion the flange as the metal is looking for somewhere to go. He notices this when the fender is turned over and hammer and dollies the flange flat again. Then his body sweep shows the low again up top, and this process goes back and forth a few times without any light bulb going off in his head......."Houston, we have a problem..." Yes, the weld shrunk the area and until you PLANISH the weld to add STRETCH you will never correctly fix that low.. He never once mentions this actual cause and effect. I would hope at his level he understands that welds shrink. Another teaching moment missed.

I always considered Wray a smart cookie but blunders such as these, gone unmentioned, are just teaching others the wrong way to do things and/or not being able to recognize the cause, effect, and proper corrective action. He does a beautiful job on showing metal finishing, but sadly still has a low area where the weld shrunk the panel when he's done.

Full disclosure, my work is not perfect, my metal finishing is not up to his standard, and Wray will probably forget more than I'll ever know. But I try to learn from my mistakes and will often use those as teaching moments to show others the how and why of what happens when things don't follow the correct process. I try to insure everyone knows cause-effect of weld shrinking/distortion and proper methods to correct. So if anyone needs training videos, I normally point them to David Gardiner, Geoff Moss, or Peter Tommasini. All these gentlemen were trained properly using traditional metalshaping methods and they do a very good job of explaining the basics so you can understand, up to the most difficult. As with anything YouTube, you have to be able to weed through the bullshit. Many of the proshaper types are entertainment at best, or Youtube content just to put out content for monetization. Learning things incorrectly is detrimental to having a good understanding of the how and why metal reacts like it does.
 
Wray will probably forget more than I'll ever know.
Only part I disagree with Robert.:) It should be the other way around.

Wray demonstrates his lack of understanding in every video he makes. Absolute worst thing IMO someone could do who is looking to learn is try and learn from him.

He put out a video about finding and removing spot welds that is a comedy of errors and completely exposes him. Wray is a good example of not learning the principles and how to apply them. He repeats the same mistakes over and over. If he was just a guy putting out vids of his work I would not say a word. But he passes himself off as a "ProShaper" and someone to learn from and charges money for that. That is why I try to out him every chance I get. The finished stuff you see in the videos, although you never see him finish anything, I can't believe he does it. Not making the same fundamental mistakes he makes over and over again in his vids. I suspect he has someone that can and the stuff you see finished is done by someone else.
 
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I haven't watched a lot of Wray's vids but I do really like how he uses flexible shape templates to map out panels/patches- they give a ton of info when shaping the new panel. Where to stretch, where to shrink, where to bend, where to trim, where to drill, etc. I also like that he equates stretching as increasing surface area and shrinking as reducing surface area, and differentiates "area" from "form". Form being what shape can be introduced/changed by bending alone while not changing the surface area (he calls this the arrangement of the panel). The flexible shape pattern always holds the same surface area of a panel due to the reinforced tape but has no form of its own since it's totally flexible- the "arrangement" can change but the "form" (surface area) stays the same- a good representation of how both area and form are needed to correctly shape a blank piece of metal into a certain shape.

Add in direction of stretching and shrinking (linear- one direction- helpful for reverse curves for instance, or radial- more equal shrinking/stretching in all directions- like hammer on dolly stretching or shrinking with a single spot with a torch) and that goes a long way into understanding how the metal needs to be manipulated to arrive at a certain shape/form.
 
FSP will lie to you though. That's one of Wrays issues when using one in his vids. He puts too much shape in because they FSP told him to do so. The fact that he cannot recognize that is rather telling. Paper patterns and profile gauges made from MDF or other material are a much better way. How it's been done for 100+ years.

Peter T. is not a fan. I think this thread explains why they lie and why they are a gimmick. In particular read NeilB and Peters responses.
 
Wow!!!......this thread sure took off. Sorry about my absentee. Spent the last few days moving equipment to storage, ie; engine hoist, hydraulic press and misc stuff to my storage unit. Needed to make the garage ready to resume working on the Barracuda.

Lots of excellent advice in this thread, I thank you all. You've never let me down.

So today I bought some new sheet metal and wheeled my first patch panel. The first patch I made, I thought it was a compound radius, it was not soòoooooo......I put my rubber band on and made the correct radius.

I had to sneak up on the 24" radius I needed because the largest lower anvil I had was an 8" radius.

Anyway, here's my 2nd wheeling attempt. Now comes the hard part, making a 3rd one to match the 2nd one, lol.

Here's the Lazer light I used so I wouldn't go past the postage stamp outline. I think I'll use a black marker instead of red. The red Lazer light will probably show up better.
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FSP will lie to you though. That's one of Wrays issues when using one in his vids. He puts too much shape in because they FSP told him to do so. The fact that he cannot recognize that is rather telling. Paper patterns and profile gauges made from MDF or other material are a much better way. How it's been done for 100+ years.

Peter T. is not a fan. I think this thread explains why they lie and why they are a gimmick. In particular read NeilB and Peters responses.


I wouldn't say that a FSP will lie, because the FSP's surface area can't change unless you damage it. There can be error in how the information the FSP gives is interpreted, the same way looking at an original panel and trying to determine a game plan for replicating that shape could be misread. The surface area of a FSP can't change, just like the surface area of a steel panel or sheet can't change unless you shrink or stretch it. The FSP is a pre-stretched/shrunk map of what and where a flat panel needs shrinking or stretching to arrive at the same amount of surface area in the same places the FSP has more or less surface area than a blank piece of steel. With that said, a FSP alone is inadequate to shape a new panel to match the old one- you'd need profile templates as well. Paper templates are also inadequate in that way, and neither pattern will tell you the best order of operations to use to arrive at a finished panel.

I would say that it takes some skill to look at a FSP laying on a flat sheet of metal to see where area needs to be added or subtracted from the blank panel to arrive at the correct form, where paper templates are more basic with only puckers or cuts. A limitation of paper patterns is that you can mostly only pucker the edges to shrink the edges, or cut the edges to stretch/expand the edges. If you were to tape the puckers/cuts so that the paper templates holds the exact distance/area across the puckers/cuts then you're partway to having a FSP... a FSP is just a more complex paper pattern with more exact information. As that thread points out, a drawback to FSPs is that they don't accurately work to trace out a blank so you'd need to add extra around the edges which wastes material. Labor is a lot more expensive than material though, so if a pattern helps speed up labor then the wasted material isn't that significant overall, and with practice you'll learn how much extra to leave without being as wasteful.

What if you're patterning a hood with a very distinct raised blister in the center, like an early Thunderbird? A paper pattern won't work, the blister raises the paper off the rest of the hood, where a FSP would perfectly conform to the blister and exactly replicate the amount and location of extra surface area that a flat panel needs to be stretched to achieve the same amount of form/area to develop the blister in the new panel. As you're stretching/forming the blister you can use the FSP as a guide; if you're not there yet with your stretching the FSP will be loose in the areas that need more stretching. If you've overstretched the blister then the FSP will be lifted away from the surface around the blister. You'd need to cut out the center of a paper pattern to let the blister protrude through the pattern to get a more accurate pattern of the rest of the hood, then you'd have no pattern of the blister... unless you made a separate paper template for the blister itself.

In my mind a paper template is better for mapping out an exact blank and locating tuck shrink locations around the edges but has a harder time mapping out accurate area/form the center of a panel. A FSP shows all of the differences in surface area across the whole panel/pattern. As a metalshaper, your job is to stretch, shrink, and bend until the new panel matches the old panel, and a FSP gives more info overall than a paper template.

Sweeps or profile templates will be the most accurate way of matching the shape of low crown panels. I don't think a FSP or paper template would be much help there other than setting the blank size and edge details, cutouts, etc.

That thread has master metalshapers who learned from master metalshapers... I imagine they never experienced nearly as much of the trial and error us normal people deal with because of their training. From my perspective as more of a beginner/hobbyist they're throwing off FSP as not needed because they don't need them with the experience they have; they mentioned being able to make accurate panels without either style of patterns or bucks. We're not all at that level, and tools like paper patterns and FSP can help us map out what to do when staring at a blank panel, I just see a FSP as having more info to offer than a paper template. Tour de France winners don't waste their time discussing the pros and cons of different styles or brands of training wheels, but a lot of four year olds appreciate a set that work correctly.

Another point of view- people have different learning styles and different ways of applying the info they've learned. Our brains all work a bit differently. I think part of the paper vs FSP vs buck/etc argument boils down to what works best for each individual- how they're able to understand and apply each method.

I made a FSP and a set of profile templates of a Hebmuller decklid last year for a local guy. We only had one evening's worth of access to the original lid, just enough to pattern it. A paper template or even a buck would never have this much detailed information about the panel. 3D scanning would have been an option if we weren't both cavemen when it comes to tech.

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Outstanding from my perspective.
I think I would get a substantial amount of satisfaction out of that. I hope you did

I'll say it was worth the effort put fourth. I'm more than satisfied with the results and achieved part of my goal. The next part of the goal is to tig weld the patch in. That will be a first for me. I could mig it in no problem but, I'd like to know how to tig weld on body panels.

This wheeled patch was probably the most basic of basics one could do with an English Wheel, and I know that but, it's given me the desire to learn more. I have some videos coming and will be taking a metal course to understand how metal reacts.

I'm being mentored again on what I should be doing if I truly want to learn, which I do. I won't let these folks down who are helping me. Just look at the knowledge shared in this thread from the pro's. I will read their replies over and over until it becomes second nature.

I'll end this reply by saying, the worst thing that could have happened if I couldn't wheel the patch panel is, I'd sell the English Wheel. It too was a training aid learning different mig welding skills during fabrication.
 
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Respectfully John, I gotta disagree with nearly all of that. John how do you lay out a blank with a FSP? You can't very accurately because the shape is already in the FSP. Profile gauges and a paper pattern will give the exact info needed to make any panel, especially a complex one. Including your VW lid. Profile gauges for the bubble and other areas like the depressed areas and overall gauge. I have watched enough of Wrays vids to see him screw up over and over because his FSP tells him to put too much shape in a spot. Then he has to chase his tail trying to fix that and it turns into a cluster****. It's flexible, it moves around and you can't accurately use it to gauge your profiles. If you can peel it off the lid how in the heck are you going to get it back to the correct shape and how do you know it's the correct shape if you think you have? That's what Wrays issue is with every vid he's done showing an FSP. To all the guys interested in learning shaping it looks easy and that's what makes it attractive. You can make something that resembles the FSP but it won't duplicate the actual part for 99% of the folks trying to use it.

Another thing with tape like that if it's 60 degrees when you start shaping then continue one day and it's 85 the tape is going to be a different shape. Subtle but it will change some.

I'm guessing you have never shaped anything complex like that lid using an FSP cause if you have you would not be such a fan. And if you have done that lid using the FSP and it fit well my hat's off to you because that would be an amazing accomplishment. (not being sarcastic). Doing it the traditional way would be far far quicker and more accurate. Might take more time to make profile gauges but they won't lie to you either.
 
Anyone that is interested in this I would encourage you to read this thread:


And if anyone wonders why I'm down on Wray, read this thread:


You don't have to be a member to view the thread and pics.
 
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