----------------------------------------------------------------------------------jeremyb;8243 said:
Have you not read the advertisements? Fastest stuff there is! Reds are more brilliant, LMFAO!
By the way BASF rumor has it, is to make their big announcement this summer for their new state of the art LOW VOC base.
Like Shine said, its all about the money but the money tree is having issues and the customers are ------*--------ing.
Why would they do such a crazy thing, when house paint works soooo good.
shine
Member
as far back as 76 they were coming to the shop trying to convince me that the sky was falling and we had to use this or that. why ? because they did it in california. didn't happen then wont happen now. rules and regs are set up by lobbyist for big repaint shops. they want to force all the small shops out. same reason for booths and fire systems . exactly what happened to the van industry . you will never see water junk in my shop and there will be solvent base around long after i am dead and gone. i just always ignore chicken little ..
J
jeremyb
i always laugh when i hear "the colors are more brilliant" . ??????? so that means the basecoats we use now that match oem cars just isn't cutting it? lol. been doin fine for years but now the colors just aren't "brilliant" like waterborne.
no one that has come into the shop has yet to convince me that my solvent system is junk and i need to use water. still waiting for a concrete explanation....not going to hold my breath.
no one that has come into the shop has yet to convince me that my solvent system is junk and i need to use water. still waiting for a concrete explanation....not going to hold my breath.
R
ryanbrown999
jeremyb;8243 said:
My humidity has been around 85% lately and it takes around 7 minutes for my first and wettest coat to flash, second is 4 minutes and a drop coat sits for 15 before clear.
I dont see how 4 minutes is a bad flash time with Dupont, being that you only put on 1.5 coats back to back. You only spray base once so in 4 minutes its ready for clear? I am not seeing how that is slow?
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ryanbrown999
I can tell you why BASF would look into low voc solvent, their water doesnt perform very good. My jobber sells both sikkens and glasurit and they dont like 90 line at all.
R
RodMan
About 1 1/2 years ago I went to the BASF training center in North Georgia. We spent the day working with the 90 line. The trainer did a good job explaining the products and procedures. After we finished I came away wondering how waterborne was going to make a shop more efficient. If everything went right and you have the proper air drying and booth setup I don't think it takes any longer than solvent. But make a mistake or try rushing a step and its a whole new level of aggravation. I think the one positive about waterborne is that it definitely forces you to be more careful about how you apply your basecoat.
J
jeremyb
so with dupont, on the 68 camaro i have in the booth now, red. sealed with spi epoxy, all i have to do is put 1.5 coats on and i'm ready to clear?
R
ryanbrown999
jeremyb;8303 said:
For the 1.5 coats to cover it really needs to be on top of the correct valueshade color. If your SPI sealer is the correct shade then you are correct. Red metallics cover in 1.5 coats just fine.
Anyone who has used Dupont solvent will now see the huge benefit in their water. There solvent covers like Kool-Aid. I will say Duponts water is slower drying than some of the others but application time is very short. There are a few things I dont like with their water but it is super productive overall.
S
sik_kreations
jeremyb;8243 said:
i dont condsider water being the holy grail by all means.. but the fact is the laws around me are getting tighter and tighter.. and this is what the majors have to offer..
if it was as easy as swapping a low voc binder.. then all the majors would have done it right away.. but they didnt..
J
jeremyb
so tell me, you think they would make more money by just swapping to a low voc binder? hell no. we need a new system! we need shops to convert! we nee a new contract! money, money, money.
R
ryanbrown999
jeremyb;8341 said:
Yes they would. They had to give us a round of tints and pay us to take back all of the old ones. They lost a good chunk of coin converting our two shops. To boot our monthly material bill went down. Dupont has been talking about the new binder and balancer for premier for years now. They told me it was about to come out but they were working out the kinks almost 3 years ago. Still isnt out yet.
Im with Sik, I dont believe it is the holy grail and still see where solvent would have its advantages. It just seems everyone believes there is a conspiracy behind it and that it cant be better than solvent base. It would be who of people to actually try it before giving an opinion on it.
J
jeremyb
so you dont think your shop is going to pay that back in future sales? when will people learn that these big paint companies dont do ANYTHING for free. you and everyone else pays that investment back with higher prices. 120% increase over the last 6 years across the board. they've invested your money already. they didn't lose ANYTHING by putting the stuff in your shop. they want you to believe that.
its the same reason akzo will not push wanda. the profit margin isn't there. these shops that sign over their life to use the companies and go into a $100,000 5-10 year contract HAVE to pay the high prices. And when the paint store that stocks it, gets the percentage off the sales, they sure as hell arent going to push it either.
i'm not a conspiracy theorist.....i'm a business man and one day everyone might understand that its ALL about the money with the big companies. They aren't working the kinks out, they are stalling until water falls on its face, then bring out this new and improved low voc base.
its just that simple to me...i was told for years by sikkens that they never made much money off 3m stuff and other allied products they stock, until a friend of mine opened up a paint store. i was always told they are practically giving the stuff to me. Hes selling me the same stuff right off the shelf, no discount, for the same price i was getting it from sikkens at a 33% discount! another local shop only gets a 10% discount on liquid products only. So if you honestly believe dupont lost money converting your shop, you are dead wrong. these guys DO NOT lose money.
its the same reason akzo will not push wanda. the profit margin isn't there. these shops that sign over their life to use the companies and go into a $100,000 5-10 year contract HAVE to pay the high prices. And when the paint store that stocks it, gets the percentage off the sales, they sure as hell arent going to push it either.
i'm not a conspiracy theorist.....i'm a business man and one day everyone might understand that its ALL about the money with the big companies. They aren't working the kinks out, they are stalling until water falls on its face, then bring out this new and improved low voc base.
its just that simple to me...i was told for years by sikkens that they never made much money off 3m stuff and other allied products they stock, until a friend of mine opened up a paint store. i was always told they are practically giving the stuff to me. Hes selling me the same stuff right off the shelf, no discount, for the same price i was getting it from sikkens at a 33% discount! another local shop only gets a 10% discount on liquid products only. So if you honestly believe dupont lost money converting your shop, you are dead wrong. these guys DO NOT lose money.
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ryanbrown999
Wanda is priced low because it has no support and no warranty. All products are priced based on what the market for it will bear. Simple marketing.
Everyone here can go on thinking solvent is so nice and water sucks. I don't really care. I was just trying to let people know it won't hurt to try it because they might like it better. I have actually used it a lot and have first hand experiance with it.
Everyone bashes the majors because they are out to make money, no shit they are a business. SPI is here to make money also. I agree that some of the product prices are getting out of hand but it really comes down to you get what you pay for. You can't ask for personal support and a lifetime warranty and not expect prices to go up. Same with color match. Shops want great matches on all colors, well paying color techs to make up variants to every shade Toyota can't get right isn't cheap.
Everyone here can go on thinking solvent is so nice and water sucks. I don't really care. I was just trying to let people know it won't hurt to try it because they might like it better. I have actually used it a lot and have first hand experiance with it.
Everyone bashes the majors because they are out to make money, no shit they are a business. SPI is here to make money also. I agree that some of the product prices are getting out of hand but it really comes down to you get what you pay for. You can't ask for personal support and a lifetime warranty and not expect prices to go up. Same with color match. Shops want great matches on all colors, well paying color techs to make up variants to every shade Toyota can't get right isn't cheap.
Ryan,
This is really sounding just like the advertisements.
If converting to Low Voc solvent was so easy, all would be doing it! Did you not read where I could do it with ANY formula in less then 30 minutes?
My Sikkens jobber said BASF was no good he sells both!
Grenstead has BASF also???? Did not know that and their salesman's trashed BASF that they sell? Funny BASF won't freeze and sikkens will last I heard.
The only thing I have not seen you write is the color match is so much better, I think you did say once the reds were so much brighter, all stuff from the ads with no basis of fact, just bull.
The reason they converted your shop, is one the owner was sold a bill of goods and dumb enough to sign a contract and sikkens made a killing on the change over, they would have never gave the same contract at this point for solvent, not enough profit.
OH, since they can make water for about a quarter of solvent are the tints priced 70% less then you were paying before the switch?
Or did they nail you with the approx 25% premium for buying the waterborne?
This is really sounding just like the advertisements.
If converting to Low Voc solvent was so easy, all would be doing it! Did you not read where I could do it with ANY formula in less then 30 minutes?
My Sikkens jobber said BASF was no good he sells both!
Grenstead has BASF also???? Did not know that and their salesman's trashed BASF that they sell? Funny BASF won't freeze and sikkens will last I heard.
The only thing I have not seen you write is the color match is so much better, I think you did say once the reds were so much brighter, all stuff from the ads with no basis of fact, just bull.
The reason they converted your shop, is one the owner was sold a bill of goods and dumb enough to sign a contract and sikkens made a killing on the change over, they would have never gave the same contract at this point for solvent, not enough profit.
OH, since they can make water for about a quarter of solvent are the tints priced 70% less then you were paying before the switch?
Or did they nail you with the approx 25% premium for buying the waterborne?
shine
Member
give it a year and they will all be praising the new low voc solvent and telling us we have to use it to know anything about it. every 10 years they come out with a new holy grail and then for the next 10 years they make up new labels and increase price. if you think uncle dupont has your back your in deep trouble. i have no desire to change and dont plan to.