Primer or Sealer?

[BB6]

Hey guys, bugging again with some more questions layful: anyways heres some pictures and I need some advice. The car was guide coated then da the entire car with 180. I finally learned how to adjust my gun properly, before I had the entire car 2k'd, sealed, and base coat. Stopped at base coat because it cracked all the way to sealer. I decided to pretty much remove all the layers and start all over now that I feel confident after messing up 4x trying to get this painted. Never had any training or anyone help me other than these forums so I know I made alot of mistakes, practice makes perfect right? . Anyways I guide coated, da with 180, guide coated it again, hand blocked entire car with 320. Removed almost all scratches and no dents showing and feel pretty happy with the body work. Wanted to make sure my body work was "perfect" before I continue with the next step. So this is where I am at, oh and for some reason attachments aren't working for me so heres a link. If someone can post these for me I'd appreciate it.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/chog3vh8l7g6x8x/AADCUmsgKw98H8YkzCnIMlbZa

Now I know theres a bit of guide coat left but its where my flat block couldn't get to so tomorrow I will use my round block, filler showing and metal showing on edges. Now heres what I am thinking. I am going to go over this with my da and 320 tomorrow before applying next product. So what would be best

1. Spray 1? 2? coats of 2k, da with 400, then epoxy seal(reduced 50%) entire panel or just break throughs? (I know I will break through primer, edges or something), base, clear.
or
2. Guide coat again, da 400, epoxy seal entire panel(reduced 25%), base, clear
or
3. What would you do

would either way work? would one way be better? what do you recommend. Thanks alot!

 

[crashtech]

It needs primer. I'd put 3 coats of 2K primer on it and block the whole thing with 320 dry and then 600 wet. NO DA on primer sanding for jobs that have to be straight. Everyone has a slightly different procedure, but virtually no one outside a low-end production shop would call what you have ready for sealer.

 

[BB6]

Why do you recommend primer since it's flat now wouldn't 3 coats of 2k and blocking that be flat also? Or am i not understanding something here. Not doubting you just wondering as i like to ask, i learn a lot from asking questions. Also since it's basically flat would a coat of epoxy work also to seal all that? The reason i am asking is because my car had few dents and what i did instead of spot primering i shot the entire panel. What's mostly showing on passenger side is the 2k primer and the old base and the driver side is mostly the old base.

 

[crashtech]

If a panel is full of sand-throughs and featheredges of multiple various levels of material, chances are good that while it might feel straight, once you get paint on it you'll be able to see all of that in the form of waves and/or something called edge mapping. Also, filler spots in particular need to be primered and sanded before paint or sealer due to a variety of reasons including solvent absorption and micropinholes. The goal on a final prime and sand is to have little to no sand-throughs to the coats underneath, ideally you want an unbroken surface except for maybe an edge here and there. This is your best chance to achieve an excellent result.

 

[BB6]

If a panel is full of sand-throughs and featheredges of multiple various levels of material, chances are good that while it might feel straight, once you get paint on it you'll be able to see all of that in the form of waves and/or something called edge mapping. Also, filler spots in particular need to be primered and sanded before paint or sealer due to a variety of reasons including solvent absorption and micropinholes. The goal on a final prime and sand is to have little to no sand-throughs to the coats underneath, ideally you want an unbroken surface except for maybe an edge here and there. This is your best chance to achieve an excellent result.

Hey crashtech, I finally got this done over the weekend. Did 3 coats blocked with 320, 3 more coats and now I am trying to prep for epoxy sealer and paint. I'm using a da with interface pad as I do not like wetsanding at all. I understand it might create waves but this car is mine and I do not care for a laser straight panels even though they currently are lol. Its a honda and it looked like this for 3 years from when I wrecked it so just a paint job is fine with me. I literally sat like this and drove it like this since I wrecked it. (with fenders and lights of courselayful

I did remove all the filler and dents and basically started this entire car because I was worried about the rain that got on it etc. So now I am doing it right. Anyways sorry for the long post, heres my questions on the 2k primer. How smooth should it be before laying the sealer. I understand 320-400 for sealer or solid colors, which is what I am doing. My question is how smooth should it actually be. I sprayed guide coat and did a light buzz on it and it feels super smooth but there is still guide coat since the 2k sprayed a bit textured. I layed it as smooth as possible but the texture is minimal compared to my first time primering. Then I tried sanding the guide coat completely off but it looks shiny/semi glossy like it was buffed or something(I burned through the edge but other than that its super smooth). Ill let the pictures explain since its probably hard to understand what I'm trying to say. The first 4 pictures is the guide coat completely removed and the 5th is a light buzz over another spot and you can see the guide coat .They both feel extremely smooth and I cannot feel a difference but you can see it with the guide coat.

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

sand the guidecoat off completely

 

[BB6]

sand the guidecoat off completely

Can 400 on interface pad cause adhesion issues? It feels way smooth I'm kind of worried the sealer won't stick properly, this is my first time doing paint and body work so I apologize if some of my questions are dumb. The semi gloss appearance is normal? For some reason I thought it was supposed to be flat with no gloss. Thanks for super quick reply Bob.

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

The finer the paper the shinier it's going to get, no reason to worry, 400 grit is just fine. You'll be ok with any grit between 320-800 IMO. Ditch the DA though if you're trying to straighten out imperfections, hand blocking is required for high quality results IMO.

 

[richrd]

the purpose of using a guide coat is to get panals striaght. You defeat the whole process when you use a da. yes it feels smooth, but it will look wavey when cleared. If the waves don't matter, then skip the guide coat.

 

[BB6]

The finer the paper the shinier it's going to get, no reason to worry, 400 grit is just fine. You'll be ok with any grit between 320-800 IMO. Ditch the DA though if you're trying to straighten out imperfections, hand blocking is required for high quality results IMO.

Okay thanks makes perfect sense to me now. Understood, thanks again.

the purpose of using a guide coat is to get panals striaght. You defeat the whole process when you use a da. yes it feels smooth, but it will look wavey when cleared. If the waves don't matter, then skip the guide coat.

Well I'm using the guide coat to stop sanding when its gone. I'm new at this so without guide coat I probably would have sanded too much off. I use it pretty much every step of the way. I do have one more question which is not really important to what I'm doing or directed at you but I was thinking if the da creates waves how do people who blend panels do it? I see lots off people who will da the entire panel to blend paint and and clear the entire thing. Wouldn't that also create waves? or am I missing something here. Thanks again for your help. Oh and since I've blocked all the way until this point and I know its super straight I might as well block it for paint then I know it is 100% perfect, we'll see, I need to get this entire car painted within a month and can only work on it on weekends

 

[richrd]

I don't think they are using a da to blend paint but they are using an orbital and fine paper to stuff the surface and (sometimes) feather small chips. But they are working on a relatively hard surface, (the clear). But in your case, working in primer which is many times softer and easier to sand and with much courser paper, it's really two different processes.

 

[BB6]

I don't think they are using a da to blend paint but they are using an orbital and fine paper to stuff the surface and (sometimes) feather small chips. But they are working on a relatively hard surface, (the clear). But in your case, working in primer which is many times softer and easier to sand and with much courser paper, it's really two different processes.

Makes sense. Thanks

Okay I sanded everything perfectly smooth 400 grit and all the guide coat is gone I feel much better now doing it this way than trying to seal what I had earlier. Is this now ready for epoxy sealer? there is only that yellow/gold spot which is filler when I fixed the dents. It is only that tiny spot and I did that about 2 months ago so I assume it would be fully cured for sealer? Other than that well I burned through body lines super quick so metal and epoxy(the white paint) is showing, heres some pictures. If I HAVE to shoot more primer can I use epoxy with my tekna instead of 2k primer with a cheap gun, sand that then seal and paint? No matter what I do I can't lay 2k primer without a bit of texture and I will probably reduce the 2k about 10-15% next time to see if that works. I've tried everything on the gun, pressure, fluid, etc so I'm thinking the gun is just not good but I can lay much better epoxy with my tekna since its obviously a better gun. I apologize for this wall of text, I tend to type as I'm thinking then I look back and see I basically wrote a book

EDIT: just noticed on the 3rd pictures theres like a shadow showing through. I tried wetsanding with block in that area since you guys said its better and that basically what it looked like so I decided to dry sand instead. Is that from sanding to much? I didn't do filler work there other than 2 quarter sized dings so I'm not sure what that is. Im 99.99% sure that wasn't there until I wet sanded

TLDR:
Currently super smooth 400 grit dry sanded, Is this ready for sealer? I burned through the 2k primer and have ;epoxy(white part), metal(on body lines and edges), and gold filler(barely showing, put that 2 months ago when doing body work so I assume its fully cured.)

 

[Bob Hollinshead]

Ideally a person wants to have a defect free, perfectly sanded surface with no sand through areas before the sealer and paint get applied but small sand throughs with small bare metal areas are usually not an issue since you're sealing with epoxy. Bare filler can be a problem though because it will soak up solvent and may show a difference in texture. If you want to move on you can seal it and see how it looks, if there's any problem areas showing shoot a double coat in these areas and lightly sand these areas the next day with 600 wet if needed.

 

[79TransAm]

The owner of a high end body restoration shop where I cut and buffed his $12,000 paint jobs told me this, "if you are going to do something wrong, you may as well do it right!." Spend an hour and hand block it and get rid of the guide coat.......it's your first job, be proud of it. It will be wavy and you will wish you had.

 

[Airbrusharthart]

I was taught to never do body work with any type of power sanding tool, you will always do better by hand blocking. but I do use D.A. and interface to do final sand after all body work and blocking is done. I also use SPI epoxy like high build some times, its sands/blocks out great. so if your out of 2k its an option.

don't leave any bare filler/metal If this were my car and I was out of 2k I would spray 2 wet coats of epoxy, hand block it out with 180 or 240 spray 2 more wet coats and D.A. with interface 240 and then really well with 400 , seal it and move on.

what color are you going to paint this car?
if its dark you really should consider blocking it

- - - Updated - - -

I was taught to never do body work with any type of power sanding tool, you will always do better by hand blocking. but I do use D.A. and interface to do final sand after all body work and blocking is done. I also use SPI epoxy like high build some times, its sands/blocks out great. so if your out of 2k its an option.

don't leave any bare filler/metal If this were my car and I was out of 2k I would spray 2 wet coats of epoxy, hand block it out with 180 or 240 spray 2 more wet coats and D.A. with interface 240 and then really well with 400 , seal it and move on.

what color are you going to paint this car?
if its dark you really should consider blocking it