Stuck on solid SS gloss issue

E

erover82

Promoted Users
I'm painting a classic 4x4 a solid single-stage green. The color is "low gloss", somewhere between semi-gloss and full gloss. I have two local paint suppliers:

Supplier #1 offers PPG Delfeet Essential, which seems fitting for a 4x4. The color code formula calls for a low-gloss binder, which they can't supply, so it'll have to be mixed full-gloss, which I don't want. The alternative is to mix DX-10-FLT to flatten it a bit, but I've been warned that this can cause striping. as a DIYer, I'll have to paint each panel individually, so I can't mix one large consistent batch. Maybe it's not a big deal since I only need to knock a bit of gloss off, but I don't know.

Supplier #2 offers Automotive Art Motobase with 8LV-2K Converter to make single-stage. First of all, I'm not sure how the quality compares to Delfleet or to Automotive Art's Motocryl , their SS-native paint line. Second, they can't mix it as "low gloss", so are advising that I spray it full gloss and then spray an adjustable-gloss clear over it. This sounds like a lot of additional work and opportunity to screw up.

What would you do?
 
Here's a truck painted the same color. The panels on these are never straight so I don't want full gloss, but it's not too far off either.

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Don’t know, but interesting idea. Factory formula is SS but maybe it can be converted. I wonder how different SS and BC look in “low gloss” in the same color.
 
The paint in that pic is not low gloss or mid gloss or flat. :confused: It is full gloss.

I'm assuming this is a LR Defender? What is the reason for you wanting low/less gloss? To hide the body work or waves that are in LR's? If so any gloss will show that to some extent. Not really going to hide it.

If you have your mind set on this first you need to determine the gloss level that you want. You would do this by painting some test panels. The easiest and simplest way is to spray it in base and use an appropriate clear flattened to the desired gloss level. That would be the way I would do it for a customer.

Any matte/flattened (to any degree) product is harder to spray than normal clear or SS. Also if you ever repair it, it will be harder to match the gloss level. Often times you are limited to two coats or the product will change gloss level. Another thing to consider is that when you spray it, how it sprays is how it will look. There is no buffing or correcting of a flattened finish without destroying the level of gloss. If you get a bug or trash there is no correcting it without respraying.

Personally I would tell you to paint it in a regular SS or base/clear. Take the time to get the body as straight as you can..
 
in addition to chris's good info, you mentioned you cant spray this all at one time. well i am here to tell you that you will never get all the pieces to match in gloss level that way. for all the panels to be an exact sheen match, every single panel will need to be sprayed exactly the same and i mean exactly. if one panel is sprayed just slightly more heavy or flash times are more or less then it will end up glossier.
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
I'm assuming this is a LR Defender? What is the reason for you wanting low/less gloss? To hide the body work or waves that are in LR's? If so any gloss will show that to some extent. Not really going to hide it.
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Correct. The PPG formula calls for this low-gloss binder, which tells me the factory intended to avoid too much gloss, but maybe I'm reading this wrong. Also, I've seen really glossy Defenders and they don't look right, but maybe that's just from using B/C and buffing too much. Not looking to necessarily hide uneven panels, but don't want to highlight them either. Basically, I just want a factory-looking finish.
Chris_Hamilton said:
If you have your mind set on this first you need to determine the gloss level that you want. You would do this by painting some test panels. The easiest and simplest way is to spray it in base and use an appropriate clear flattened to the desired gloss level. That would be the way I would do it for a customer.
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Done a few in the Delfleet paint system to test out the paint and my process. Definitely willing to do more.
Chris_Hamilton said:
Any matte/flattened (to any degree) product is harder to spray than normal clear or SS. Also if you ever repair it, it will be harder to match the gloss level. Often times you are limited to two coats or the product will change gloss level. Another thing to consider is that when you spray it, how it sprays is how it will look. There is no buffing or correcting of a flattened finish without destroying the level of gloss. If you get a bug or trash there is no correcting it without respraying.

Personally I would tell you to paint it in a regular SS or base/clear. Take the time to get the body as straight as you can..
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Understood, thanks
 
Jim C said:
in addition to chris's good info, you mentioned you cant spray this all at one time. well i am here to tell you that you will never get all the pieces to match in gloss level that way. for all the panels to be an exact sheen match, every single panel will need to be sprayed exactly the same and i mean exactly. if one panel is sprayed just slightly more heavy or flash times are more or less then it will end up glossier.
Click to expand...

Would you say this advice applies to full gloss as well? This is my personal project, so I don't need exact, but "no noticeable differences" would be good.
 
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Best advice I can give is this, if you have your heart set on painting it the lower gloss, then look for the color in another system. Standox would be the first one that I would check. I would imagine that Standox would have the formula. They have a lot of coverage for Rover. BASF as well.

As for Delfleet and the low gloss binder, I would check with PPG directly as to the availability. My gut says that the PPG Jobber you are dealing with doesn't want to stock it being it's not commonly used. So they tell you it's unavailable. Find out the PPG number for the binder and google it. I'll bet it is available.

Googling Delfleet low gloss binder brings up several results. Like I said above I would bet the Jobber doesn't stock it, as opposed to it not being available.


If you go forward with the low gloss, plan on spraying the truck all at one time. Assembled. You can do the jambs and undersides separate but like Jim said it's the only way to get the gloss relatively equal. Even doing it complete you will have slight gloss differences in places on the truck but it won't be as noticable. Doing it panel by panel will result in a lot of difference and will not look well when you put it all together. Trust us on this. Flattened clear or SS is not easy to spray and there are several different ways to screw it up. I'll mention again that you will only get one shot at it. Any trash. runs, dry spots, etc that you get will be there to stay. Only option would be to respray. And matching gloss level if you have to repair it is very hard. Close is as close as you will get if you have to repair say a fender or door.

Not trying to be negative, just trying to give you the reality of a flattened type job.
 
Chris is right, as I had a 95 gloss red.
The sticker was around 27,000, and try to buy a nice one for twice that.
About a year later dealer gave me more than sticker

Value on these defenders is based on two things.
1)Nice original or properly restored. (big bucks)
2)Super modified for off-road and done right. (big bucks)

Fresh matt paint you just chased away 95%
Of the buyers, unless the rover has been a super customed.
 
erover82 said:
Would you say this advice applies to full gloss as well? This is my personal project, so I don't need exact, but "no noticeable differences" would be good.
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my experience with sheen is more in poly and varnish used in woodoworking but i think it applies to auto paint,too. im sure ill be corrected if im mistaken.
poly and varnish start as gloss. flattening agents are added at different proportions to make the different sheens- semi gloss, satin, flat/matte. if you were to pick up a can of each sheen, you will typically see the flattening agents laying on the bottom of the can. they have to be stirred into the poly or varnish
it can be fun keeping the flattening agents mixed through the poly/ varnish through the finishing process. gloss- no flattening agents no problem. although i do my best at keeping the overlap of the fan pattern consistent, i have more felxibility with gloss than with the other sheens because there are no flattening agents that have to stay in suspension in the product evenly. switch to the other sheens and i have to watch the overlap carefully so the flattening agents are consistant on each pass.
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
As for Delfleet and the low gloss binder, I would check with PPG directly as to the availability. My gut says that the PPG Jobber you are dealing with doesn't want to stock it being it's not commonly used. So they tell you it's unavailable. Find out the PPG number for the binder and google it. I'll bet it is available.
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Yes, that is the case. The binder is ESB810 and they don't want to carry it since they've never seen it called for before. This is understandable. I thought it was just to knock off a tiny amount of gloss, but I'm beginning to wonder if it's an error in PPG's system.

The photo posted above was from a restored truck in an unknown paint system. Been looking for factory trucks in that color this morning and they all appear to be full gloss (as far as I can tell), so again I don't know why the PPG formula calls for that binder.
 
Barry said:
Chris is right, as I had a 95 gloss red.
The sticker was around 27,000, and try to buy a nice one for twice that.
About a year later dealer gave me more than sticker

Value on these defenders is based on two things.
1)Nice original or properly restored. (big bucks)
2)Super modified for off-road and done right. (big bucks)

Fresh matt paint you just chased away 95%
Of the buyers, unless the rover has been a super customed.
Click to expand...

Didn't realize anyone here would be familiar with Defenders. Most people in the States have never heard of them or think they're a Jeep. This is an imported 90 I immediately stripped down for a nut and bolt rebuild. Every single component has been rebuilt in my shop and all parts refinished in SPI primers. The galvanized chassis was top coated with Matte Black SS mixed at semi-gloss ratio. The body was completely rusted or galvanically corroded away from UK salt, so 80% of body panels are brand new.

I fully agree on matte paint being undesirable to most, myself included. I only ever thought the PPG formula intended to knock just a slight amount of gloss off.

At this point I'll probably just stop worrying about it and continue in Delfleet full gloss. The factory never attempted to hide all the spot welds and panel waves with filler, so I'll do the same.

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IMG_5541.jpeg
 
Nice job; the body is like doing a 50s or 60s Corvette. There are two ways to block or don't block.
I painted two survivors, and both wanted non-buffed lacquer, and the only block was the palm of the hand like it came from the factory.
Way your doing this either way will bring big bucks if you get it out of your head the defleet, and base clear it .
 
Barry said:
Nice job; the body is like doing a 50s or 60s Corvette. There are two ways to block or don't block.
I painted two survivors, and both wanted non-buffed lacquer, and the only block was the palm of the hand like it came from the factory.
Way your doing this either way will bring big bucks if you get it out of your head the defleet, and base clear it .
Click to expand...

Thanks Barry, it's been a several year project now. The clients are only myself and my two boys, ages 5 and 8 now.

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IMG_5783.jpeg


Abandon the Delfleet? My understanding from reading what's available on the web is that it's a very durable and hard curing paint system, which seems appropriate for a 4x4. My two local choices are Delfleet Essential or Automotive Arts Motobase converted to SS with 8LV-2K. First shop used to carry Concept but stopped after the price went to the moon.

Sounds like you'd abandon SS altogether though. My thinking was that BC and SS have a different appearance (initially and as they age) and it would be best to keep it original. You guys are the experts though and I appreciate the advice.
 
IMO Barry wasn't espousing BC/CC more than Single Stage as much as he was saying to stop thinking about the flattened gloss. Either BC/CC or SS will work and look nice. SS would get you closer to the original look but honestly when you finish the job you would be happy either way. I have sprayed probably about a dozen flattened jobs for folks and I am not a fan. And with the amount of flattening I think you were looking for, honestly it will look like a job where the clear or SS died back and will look odd. Again just my opinion.

Where in Oregon are you? I would imagine there are more choices closer than you think. If there is a PPG distributor near you I'm sure there is an Axalta distributor close as well. Automotive Art has a good single stage system called Motocryl. If the formula is only available in Motobase you can call/email AA headquarters and they will convert the formula to Motocryl for you. No charge. I know that because they did that for me once. There is a guy on here who will mix whatever you want in AA and ship it to you.

Axalta Distributor Locator (Standox and other brands)

Distributor Locator

www.axalta.com www.axalta.com

BASF Distributor Locator (multiple lines including Wanda, Glasurit, RM, Diamont)

Forum member Chad (AA and Wanda)

Chad's paint and Audio — Auto Rod Technologies

Southwest Michigans premier paint supply store.
www.autorodtechnologies.com www.autorodtechnologies.com
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
IMO Barry wasn't espousing BC/CC more than Single Stage as much as he was saying to stop thinking about the flattened gloss. Either BC/CC or SS will work and look nice. SS would get you closer to the original look but honestly when you finish the job you would be happy either way. I have sprayed probably about a dozen flattened jobs for folks and I am not a fan. And with the amount of flattening I think you were looking for, honestly it will look like a job where the clear or SS died back and will look odd. Again just my opinion.

Where in Oregon are you? I would imagine there are more choices closer than you think. If there is a PPG distributor near you I'm sure there is an Axalta distributor close as well. Automotive Art has a good single stage system called Motocryl. If the formula is only available in Motobase you can call/email AA headquarters and they will convert the formula to Motocryl for you. No charge. I know that because they did that for me once. There is a guy on here who will mix whatever you want in AA and ship it to you.

Axalta Distributor Locator (Standox and other brands)

Distributor Locator

www.axalta.com www.axalta.com

BASF Distributor Locator (multiple lines including Wanda, Glasurit, RM, Diamont)

Forum member Chad (AA and Wanda)

Chad's paint and Audio — Auto Rod Technologies

Southwest Michigans premier paint supply store.
www.autorodtechnologies.com www.autorodtechnologies.com
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Understood. I'm in Southern Oregon, so not nearly as many paint resources as up north. No Axalta around here but the BASF locator did come up with a local-ish dealer I've never seen before.

The AA shop here says Motocryl requires a different inventory to mix so they don't carry it. I'm skeptical that a converted base is the same quality as a native SS, so I leaned toward the Delfleet. Also, I've read that the Delfleet is pretty durable and hard (good for a 4x4), to the point of being difficult to buff.

I had considered ordering paint in, but wasn't sure it would be worth it over going with the local stuff, and wasn't sure who to order from anyway. I want the best result I can get as a DIYer, but I also remind myself that it's a 4x4 after all.
 
I sprayed 3 GMC 7500 cabs for a customer to match their shirt colors. I had to spray them outside, and used them with the delfleet essential single stage. For PPG, the price wasn't too bad. The ratios were strange, an activator and a hardener. The coverage and gloss was really nice for a commercial paint, but still not automotive gloss quality, IMO
 
Erover,
My 2 cents worth, you are dealing with a 6-figure vehicle at most auctions with the work you have done.
If you are a top-notch painter, then ss or base clear will work.
If you don't paint and buff every day, your chances are better with a base clear.
Believe 50% what you read or hear.

Read what Tex said.

My opinion this could makes $20,000 difference in value.
Is that worth as it saving a few bucks on paint?
 
Barry said:
Erover,
My 2 cents worth, you are dealing with a 6-figure vehicle at most auctions with the work you have done.
If you are a top-notch painter, then ss or base clear will work.
If you don't paint and buff every day, your chances are better with a base clear.
Believe 50% what you read or hear.

Read what Tex said.

My opinion this could makes $20,000 difference in value.
Is that worth as it saving a few bucks on paint?
Click to expand...

Thanks Barry, I generally believe 75% of what I read here, and 25% elsewhere, so I guess the average works out.
 
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