3M Particulate filters for respirator

Mission said:
What I was suggesting is that if you just want the particulate protection for sanding and don't want to get the 603, use your expired cartridge to hold your new particulate filters.
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Sorry sounded like I had an attitude and that was most definitely not the case. I posted using my new phone, of which I'm still getting used too. That sentence was part of something that I was originally going to post earlier and it got automatically saved. I forgot to delete it before I posted what I did. Sorry for any misunderstanding.:)

The info I gave was told to me by a 3M rep that I know and trust. 24-48 hours of exposure to the atmosphere. I stand by that as being the standard. The 3M Rep you spoke to is in error as Iso's have no smell and you cannot tell when you are breathing them. If you start to smell something rest assured you have already gotten a large dose of Iso's. And their recommendation of a cartridge for isocyanate filtering is news to me. They specifically used to state that those masks were not adequate for Iso's. I will see if I can find the technical data on that. From what I have learned through I-Car classes and talking to various reps the only adequate protection against Iso's is a supplied air respirator.

Also keep in mind that if you are using these masks in a non booth environment you are already exceeding the Permissible Exposure Limit of the half masks and in many cases the full masks as well, which is 10X and 50X respectively.
I just don't want anyone to think they are "safe" when using one. You are "safer" but you are still being exposed.

Here is a 3M tech article on activated charcoal canister and how they work.

 
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Another 3M tech article. Backs up the points I made above.


Excerpt from the article:

The odour threshold for isocyanates, i.e. the level at which an individual can smell
an isocyanate, is typically higher than the allowed exposure limits. In other words, if
a painter smells the sweet, fruity, pungent odour of an isocyanate, they are probably
already overexposed. That is why the recommended respiratory protection for
employees spraying isocyanates is a supplied air respirator and not an air purifying
respirator (i.e. filter cartridge style).

Bottom line is if you are using a Organic vapor cartridge to spray polyurethane's, keep the cartridge changed often (24 hours of atmosphere, not painting, exposure) spray in as well ventilated area as you can (if not in a booth) and always seal the respirator "airtight" when not in use.And if you have exhibited chemical sensitivity or certain allergies in the past strongly consider using a supplied air system.
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
Another 3M tech article. Backs up the points I made above.


Excerpt from the article:

The odour threshold for isocyanates, i.e. the level at which an individual can smell
an isocyanate, is typically higher than the allowed exposure limits. In other words, if
a painter smells the sweet, fruity, pungent odour of an isocyanate, they are probably
already overexposed. That is why the recommended respiratory protection for
employees spraying isocyanates is a supplied air respirator and not an air purifying
respirator (i.e. filter cartridge style).

Bottom line is if you are using a Organic vapor cartridge to spray polyurethane's, keep the cartridge changed often (24 hours of atmosphere, not painting, exposure) spray in as well ventilated area as you can (if not in a booth) and always seal the respirator "airtight" when not in use.And if you have exhibited chemical sensitivity or certain allergies in the past strongly consider using a supplied air system.
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It is a pretty serious topic.
If I'm just shooting a few parts for a minute or so, I'll use a cartridge, and always googles, long sleeves and gloves. Isocyanates are absorbed through the skin and eyes, not just inhaled.

Any larger job and I put on the fresh air hood.

Here is what I am using (some may scoff since they are from China and low priced, but they work great!.):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012D8NLQG/
https://www.amazon.com/Supplied-Respirator-Mask-Mask-Connection-Breathing/dp/B01MU2Z17Z/

The catch is, the compressor has to be taking in fresh air, not air with paint fumes in it, or it is pointless.
Since my main compressor is in the shop and doesn't have "fresh" air intake, I use a smaller portable jobsite type compressor for the hood and put it outside and run hose to the booth from it. Kinda of a pain tending two hoses in the booth, but the hood has a cool breeze moving through it, never fogs up and the field of vision is much better than googles. And of course, zero exposure.
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
Another 3M tech article. Backs up the points I made above.


Excerpt from the article:

The odour threshold for isocyanates, i.e. the level at which an individual can smell
an isocyanate, is typically higher than the allowed exposure limits. In other words, if
a painter smells the sweet, fruity, pungent odour of an isocyanate, they are probably
already overexposed. That is why the recommended respiratory protection for
employees spraying isocyanates is a supplied air respirator and not an air purifying
respirator (i.e. filter cartridge style).

Bottom line is if you are using a Organic vapor cartridge to spray polyurethane's, keep the cartridge changed often (24 hours of atmosphere, not painting, exposure) spray in as well ventilated area as you can (if not in a booth) and always seal the respirator "airtight" when not in use.And if you have exhibited chemical sensitivity or certain allergies in the past strongly consider using a supplied air system.
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It's not the smell of the isocyanate. It's the smell of the other fumes such as acetone or other chemicals (he may have said toluene) that pre dates the threshold for the isocyanate for passing through. He told me he was very well trained in this area. I'm just saying what he told me.

Edit: The email was copy and pasted directly from my inbox. I put it in italics.
 
Mission said:
It's not the smell of the isocyanate. It's the smell of the other fumes such as acetone or other chemicals (he may have said toluene) that pre dates the threshold for the isocyanate for passing through. He told me he was very well trained in this area. I'm just saying what he told me.

Edit: The email was copy and pasted directly from my inbox. I put it in italics.
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What he told you is in direct contradiction to what 3M has written in many many tech articles and what is commonly taught in I-Car and other technical training. Refer to this 3M link. It directly contradicts what this guy told you.


Do as you want, but bad info is bad info irregardless of the source.
 
I am making a big deal of this because I don't want you or someone who read what you posted to permanently injure and damage their body due to improper use of an organic filter cartridge respirator. Iso sensitivity from exposure lasts a lifetime. There is no coming back from it or getting better. I have been painting for 28 years and take the safety aspect very seriously as many of my coworkers over the years developed the Iso sensitivity and can never paint again. All of them were vapor cartridge users. Several of them now have COPD which has been linked to exposure to Iso's. Bad thing about Iso's is each persons tolerance is different. Some can develop symptoms after being exposed just a few times. Others like me are more fortunate. I don't push my luck anymore though, I only spray anything containing Iso's with a supplied air system.
 
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3M used to have on the packaging of those organic vapor respirators that they were not for use with isocyanate containing products. Any of you other old timers remember that. I haven't looked at the packaging lately.

What Organic vapor respirators are relatively safe for.
Epoxy primers
polyester primers
solvent base coats (not activated)
waterbourne base coats.
Adhesion promoter,
lacquers, and non iso containing enamels

Essentially anything other than urethane or polyurethane products, provided you are not exceeding the recomended exposure level. In a non booth environment this often occurs.
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
I am making a big deal of this because I don't want you or someone who read what you posted to permanently injure and damage their body due to improper use of an organic filter cartridge respirator.
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I can understand that. That is why I called 3M and emailed them. Maybe something has changed since 2008. I believe that is when that tech update was copyrighted. I was worried I was not protecting myself. That is why I started asking questions. I specifically told tech support he was clearing up some information I had read and that is when he told me he was well trained in this area. I suggest someone besides me contact 3M and ask them.

Please let us know if we can be of additional assistance.
Paul
Personal Safety Division Technical Service
Techline 1-800-243-4630
Monday through Thursday, 8am -6:00pm CDT; Friday, 8:00am-4:30pm CDT
www.3M.com/workersafety
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
What Organic vapor respirators are relatively safe for.
Epoxy primers
polyester primers
solvent base coats (not activated)
waterbourne base coats.
Adhesion promoter,
lacquers, and non iso containing enamels
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I read this or something similar. That is why I started asking questions.
 
Mission said:
Maybe something has changed since 2008
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What could change? Activated charcoal is still activated charcoal. Iso's are still Iso's. Believe me, don't believe me I don't care. I can promise you what I am telling you is the truth. I have a little bit of training as well (I-Car pro level 2 at one time) What I'm telling you is from real world practical experience as well, not someone sitting behind a desk answering a phone.

They will provide some protection provided you have not exceeded the 10x exposure limit for a half mask (very easy to do) or the 50X exposure limit for a full mask, for a limited time. In a non booth environment that time is shortened drastically. The problem is that the cartridges have a very limited lifespan and this is not readily apparent when they need to be changed. And activated charcoal is weakened by exposure to the atmosphere which further clouds things. If you change the cartridges every 24 hours of atmosphere exposure you are relatively safe. But it is not optimal protection. In the end it's your body and if you want to take the risk that's your choice. I made a big deal of this because you posted info that is contrary to everything I have been told and learned in technical training classes like I-Car

Read some of the articles in this google search.

 
Chris_Hamilton said:
What could change?
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I don't know. Why don't you call 3M and ask them if their thinking and research has developed new strategies? I posted the contact information. I don't want to bicker with you. I posted information I got from live people 1 day ago because I thought it would be beneficial to the users of this forum. Please call 3M. Argue with them and post your findings. Everyone reading this is interested. Thank you.
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
They will provide some protection provided you have not exceeded the 10x exposure limit for a half mask (very easy to do) or the 50X exposure limit for a full mask, for a limited time. In a non booth environment that time is shortened drastically. The problem is that the cartridges have a very limited lifespan and this is not readily apparent when they need to be changed. And activated charcoal is weakened by exposure to the atmosphere which further clouds things. If you change the cartridges every 24 hours of atmosphere exposure you are relatively safe. But it is not optimal protection. In the end it's your body and if you want to take the risk that's your choice. I made a big deal of this because you posted info that is contrary to everything I have been told and learned in technical training classes like I-Car

Read some of the articles in this google search.

recommended respiratory protection for spraying isocyanates - Google Search
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I am not saying that 3M told me an organic filter will replace a fresh air system. Is that what I projected?
 
This post bothers me as it could confuse a lot of people but could be worthwhile!!??

First, only God knows how many 55 gallon drums of ISOs we have in plant and different types, without being there and counting. A safe guess is around 20 to 30 drums any given day.

Second what you are smelling is solvent, not ISOs like Chris said.

Third, im not an expert on cartages, and I think Chris has forgotten more than I know about them.

Forth, we are required in the manufacturing part to give a new respirator to each employee every day. So we go through case lots every month.

Fith, I tell people every day this is not where you want to try and save a buck!
So only buy from an automotive paint store as they will not try and kill the painter of their most extensive account.
They may have Gerson, 3m, or SAS buy the one that fits you the best and maybe on a sale, and you are safe.
We buy ours from a PBE warehouse as we are set up as a jobber due to our volume.
For those that dont know, PBE warehouses sell to automotive paint stores.
 
The part that bothers me about the post is 3M is not saying those cartridges will stops Iso's, they're saying if you're painting with iso's, use those cartridges. I work in R&D for a $7B company and that is corporate speak.

The other part about the post was the example of 'gas fumes' reacting with activated charcoal if the mask was left out. AIR will react with activated charcoal. There's a finite number of carbon molecules in the activated charcoal masks, and they have a finite amount of binding capacity. Regular old air is full of lots of things that are constantly being adsorbed by carbon molecules as they pass through the mask...even your farts!!! Once sealed in a bag, there reaches a point of depletion where everything inside the bag has been adsorbed to the carbon in the mask filter so the reaction continues no longer and the activated charcoal is no longer being consumed. This is also why when I place my mask in the bag at the end of use, I squeeze as much air from the bag as possible. And as soon as I'm done using the mask, back in the bag it goes. I don't keep it out of the bag for a minute longer than I need to.

By the way, Harbor Freight sells a Gerson half-faced respirator that says right on the bag, rated for Isos.
 
The charcoal will also pull in moisture, so I like to wipe out visible condensation from the inside of my mask before sealing it in the bag. I have found it interesting that a used mask weighs noticeably more than a new one. If I was more scientific, I might do a bit more testing and just chuck an old mask simply based on a weight threshold. That's still not really a good measure of a mask's (lack of) remaining usefulness, but it might be better than relying on sense of smell or elapsed time.
 
Email from 3M as received today.


Respirator selection for isocyanate-based products, including automotive paints/coatings/polyurethanes, has evolved over the past 20+ years due to OSHA regulatory changes. Prior to these changes a supplied air respirator system was required due to poor warning properties of isocyanates. Current OSHA regulations allow use of air purifying respirators for isocyanates (as previously mentioned), provided a full respiratory protection program is in place. The program must include a cartridge/filter change schedule meeting requirements of 29 CFR 1910.134. There are no general rules of thumb or specific time use limitations for a change schedule and is based on the user conditions.


For 3M 6000 Series gas and vapor cartridges (6001, 6002, etc.), a change schedule may be determined using the 3M Respirator Service Life Software. This software will allow you to calculate the service life of 3M chemical cartridges when exposed to certain organic and inorganic compounds. It also allows calculations for mixtures. The software is accessible on our website using the link below:
http://extra8.3m.com/SLSWeb/home.html

A change schedule for particulate filters (5N11 N95, 5P71 P95 and 2000 Series) is more subjective. In most cases, 3M recommends changing the filter when breathing becomes difficult or if damaged. Time use limitations of 40 hours of continuous use or 30 days (whichever occurs first) apply to the P95 and P100 filters when an oily aerosol is present.

The attached article and Technical Bulletin provide additional information on this topic.

Paul
Personal Safety Division Technical Service
Techline 1-800-243-4630
Monday through Thursday, 8am -6:00pm CDT; Friday, 8:00am-4:30pm CDT
www.3M.com/workersafety
 

Attachments

  • JHH Respirator Selection for Diisocyanates.pdf
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  • Industrial Paint Hazards _TDB.pdf
    146.7 KB · Views: 117
i use a new respirator for every job. put it back in the bag as soon as i'm through spraying . but i can tell you they have a very short life span . usually less than 40 hrs. left on the bench keeps the clock running . mask are cheap , lungs aren't .
 
i had been told many years ago that there are many different types of iso's and the ones used in the paint industry are not a gas but rather a solid so generally once the overspray is gone so is the iso. the iso because its a solid will be filtered out just by the prefilter in the mask. the charcoal part of the cartridge is for the solvents and the gas part of it. maybe thats completely incorrect, i have no idea. maybe barry can give his 2 cents since he works with it all the time.
 
I emailed again and told him I was a hobbyist with exposure of 20 minutes at a time and asked about using the software posted in the last email. I also asked about checking the level of isocyanates and here is the response I received:


As a hobbyist, you don't fall under the scope of OSHA and so are exempt from cartridge/filter change schedules and other provisions required of employers in a workplace setting. Air monitoring for isocyanates or other VOCs is probably not necessary. Your best approach may be use of appropriate ppe, including respiratory protection. Depending on your frequency of use, you may want to be conservative with your cartridge/filter change schedule. Once per week/2x per month/once per month are suggested starting points. Otherwise follow the guidance previously provided, which include cartridge replacement as soon as the wearer begins to smell or taste the contaminants or if an irritation occurs and prefilters replaced as soon as increased breathing resistance occurs.
The fans you have set-up are also good exposure controls. In addition to inhalation hazards, isocyanate-bas ed paints/coatings also present a skin contact hazard. Refer to the coating Safety Data Sheet for ppe recommendations for both inhalation and skin contact hazards.


Paul
Personal Safety Division Technical Service
Techline 1-800-243-4630
Monday through Thursday, 8am -6:00pm CDT; Friday, 8:00am-4:30pm CDT
www.3M.com/workersafety

I hope other hobbyists like myself find this information useful and can make an informed decision.. The pros already know what to do IMHO.
 
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