"Boxing" color and clear coat

DWinTX

Member
I have sprayed epoxy and Slick Sand on my 70 Corvette. After I block, which I hope won't take too long, I'll be ready for color. The color I am going with is Ontario Orange, which was one of the "Firemist" colors on early 70's Vettes (the others being Steel Cities Gray and Warbonnet Yellow).

This was a fine metallic. I was researching this color and ran across a post on the Corvette forum where a pro painter described his process of applying these Firemist colors as "boxing" them. Here is how he described it:

I should have been clearer... when I say boxing the color and clear -
You shoot base to cover the primer, then 2 coats of 50% base 50% clear then 1 of 25% color and 75% clear then 1-coat of 100% clear.

Base coats lay too flat and do not allow the pigments to "orient themselves in another direction other than flat"
If you observe metallic lacquers and single stage metallics under 20 times magnification you will see the metallic or borosilicate flakes are not all oriented flat, some are "standing on edge or at an angle to viewing.


Have any of you all done this? Any reason I would have a problem doing this with Universal Clear?
 

texasking

Active Member
I have never heard of using base in this way. Base is not designed to be mixed with clear. Maybe he was using a single stage urethane. That would make more sense. One coat of straight clear is not enough, even if this process worked.
 

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
So many things wrong with that statement.:D
First off you need to establish what type of paint he was referring to. Lacquer? Enamel? Urethane? Never heard of it either. Sounds like some BS that was in a book he read. Guy does not sound like a Pro to me. Have you seen his work or verified that he has a Shop? NCRS Cred's? Painters don't talk that way. (20x magnification). His theory is that by encapsulating the metallic in clear then it will lay in some other direction than flat? LOL. So after doing this you only have one coat of clear (without any metallic in it)? What happens when you color sand? Pure BS. Another internet expert. Advice he was giving is Not relevant to modern basecoat systems IMO.
If you are having trouble with getting the metallic to lay correctly the correct thing to do is to reduce it with a "blender". Which is simply clear basecoat binder. SPI Intercoat would also serve the same purpose. That is only done if you are having issues.

Don't overthink it. Use a high quality basecoat system, follow the TDS and you will be fine.

I like that color btw (Ontario Orange).
 
Last edited:

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
Found the original thread (https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c3-general/4321633-ontario-orange.html) and it's pretty clear he's repeating something that someone else told him.
This may have had some application with lacquer many years ago but is irrelevant if you are using a modern basecoat system. And I think it was in the context of trying to repair an existing finish. That's what happens when someone repeats something they don't understand....then it gets misinterpreted by others. Also keep in mind that flake technology in 1972 was not what it is today and therefore those "firemist" colors were harder to spray and get to lay down correctly than they would be today.
You can't always believe everything you read on internet forums. One reason why this forum is so exceptional. Almost (all?) advice you read is correct. If it isn't it gets sussed out pretty quick.

Guy sounds like a Corvette Nazi to me. I've known a few of those NCRS Nazi's over the years, can take the fun completely out of a Corvette.:rolleyes:
 

Jorge M.

Member
I have sprayed epoxy and Slick Sand on my 70 Corvette. After I block, which I hope won't take too long, I'll be ready for color. The color I am going with is Ontario Orange, which was one of the "Firemist" colors on early 70's Vettes (the others being Steel Cities Gray and Warbonnet Yellow).

This was a fine metallic. I was researching this color and ran across a post on the Corvette forum where a pro painter described his process of applying these Firemist colors as "boxing" them. Here is how he described it:

I should have been clearer... when I say boxing the color and clear -
You shoot base to cover the primer, then 2 coats of 50% base 50% clear then 1 of 25% color and 75% clear then 1-coat of 100% clear.

Base coats lay too flat and do not allow the pigments to "orient themselves in another direction other than flat"
If you observe metallic lacquers and single stage metallics under 20 times magnification you will see the metallic or borosilicate flakes are not all oriented flat, some are "standing on edge or at an angle to viewing.


Have any of you all done this? Any reason I would have a problem doing this with Universal Clear?
The only time I have heard of a painter mixing basecoat with clear was to fix a metallic job looking a bit blotchy after he cleared it. I’m not sure what ratio of base/clear he used but he told me he had to do it to even out the metallic, two foggy coats he said then he did another 2 coats of clear on top. Like it’s been mentioned it’s a last resort kinda thing and not something usually done.
 

EddieF

Top Banana
My experience when i put base at 16:1 in 1st coat of clear to freshen up color of original base/clear was glitter effect.
The flake will be spread out/dilluted so, unless you like sparkles, don't do it. Looks like those high bounce balls i had as kid.
 

DWinTX

Member
Chris, I don't really know if he is a pro, but in post #12 he states that he paints high end show cars. And he mentions that he went through the process of matching the Warbonnet Yellow to "NCRS matching service ", whatever that is. So I didn't get the impression he was just repeating something he read. And I'm not sure why you think he's a "Corvette Nazi". I know those types exist, but I just got the impression he was just trying to determine if the OP was going to want a finish that would pass NCRS judging.

That said, that's why I'm asking here. I don't believe everything I read anywhere, not just on the web. So I was looking for some validation (or the opposite) here. Frankly, I really didn't want to go to all that trouble. I'm a total novice and it sounds like a process that I have a high possibility of screwing up. :)

I'm already nervous about spraying a metallic. I had a 72 Ontario Orange Corvette back in 82/83 and always loved it. But I didn't remember it being a metallic when I decided to paint this car that color.
 

crashtech

Combo Man
One thing I can say for sure is that the technique mentioned would only be valid for SS or lacquer. The only manufacturerer that I know of that recommends intermixing base and clear is/was PPG, and that was only for painting underhood jambs, never exteriors.

If the technique was used with lacquer, it would need to be followed with at least another half-dozen coats or so of lacquer clear so it could be rubbed out.
 

crashtech

Combo Man
Whatever you decide to do, make a sprayout panel just the way you're going to paint the car, so you know what to expect and can compare it with existing examples, if desired.

I'm not going to say that the technique described isn't valid under certain circumstances, but there is quite a bit of information missing, and it's very unlikely that it would apply to a modern basecoat system.
 

elwood

Registered Users
Should be a beautiful car when finished. Friend had a 72 that was warbonnet yellow. Looked almost gold if memory is correct.
 

metalman

Oldtimer
Never heard of the process as described above and agree that it would not apply to modern base/clear products.
The only time I ever heard the term “boxing colors” it meant to mix all separate cans of the same color together to insure a uniform color .
I first heard the phrase from my old man who was a house painter. He would for example put 5 gallons of “mixed color” from the paint store all together in a 5 gallon bucket, mix well and work from that.
 

DWinTX

Member
So this morning I set about to find the paint. Trying to find one of the brands on Barry's list here:


I called two auto paint suppliers in my area. One was English Color and the other just a local company. The local company said they only mix Matirx, which isn't on the list and searching on this forum, I only see negatives.

EC only sells Omni and Omni Plus, which seems to have mixed reviews and is not on the list. Said they used to sell Glasurit and Diamont, but no more. I asked about the color, Ontario Orange, and she said she would have to have a paint code or a sample. I have no sample, so I gave her every paint code on here:


and none of them was found in whatever lookup she was doing. She said they were likely the old lacquer codes. I was surprised that they don't have data to mix old colors with newer paints, but I know absolutely nothing about the auto paint business.

Is it common to find paint suppliers that can't find the formulas to mix classic car colors, or did I just pick the wrong places? I'm in the Dallas-Ft Worth area so I know there have got to be some good suppliers. Or are there good online places to buy them?
 

crashtech

Combo Man
My jobber says that #5293 will pull up a Chromabase color, that's all I was able to find. You might need to drive to a different city, but Chromabase is not too hard to find.
 

Julian

Member
" I'm in the Dallas-Ft Worth area so I know there have got to be some good suppliers. Or are there good online places to buy them? " There is a English Color in Lewisville... The English Color near me in Richland Ms mixes Diamont and Glasurit as of last year..
 

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
If you are in the DFW area you have your choice of all the majors. In addition to Motobase (what Don referred to) there is a number of others. Some are more expensive than others. I'll list some along with the distributor locator page of each brand

PPG DBC

Axalta (Cromax brands such as Chromabase, Mosaic, Cromax Pro, some also carry Standox)

BASF Diamont (high quality stuff particularly Glasurit)

Wanda (good quality good price as well)

AkzoNobel (Sikkens some of the best ) they have changed their website so it's hard to find the distributor list but they have a branch in Dallas

Standox, Metalux are also super high quality brands. You can usually find both at a Axalta/Cromax distributor

There are a few others but those are the major ones that come to mind now.
 
Top