Epoxy Primer Trial Failure

shine

Member
20210114_140926.jpg

sanded with 80 , cleaned and shot .
 
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RosharonRooster

Promoted Users
I like the testing idea. But by not following the product directions you are trying to get char broiled flavor by cooking in an oven. I can personally attest that the powder coated frame on one of my cars has shown signs of corrosion before the floor pans that were coated with 2 coats of spi epoxy.....so yeah its better than powdercoat...
 

arbezc

New Member
Thanks for the comments guys,

Yes, my wife is pretty forgiving. The service department guys got a chuckled out of the panel when she took the car into the dealership. I ran a similar test on undercoating sprays a couple of years back. Those results were surprising as well.

Chris thanks for that link, very instructive. Obviously something went wrong with my process. I’ll duplicate the body puddy test once we have warmer weather. At some point I'll need to decide wether to use puddy or lead as the factory did. To win at Pebble Beach that car’s finish must be spectacular. At this point in the restoration I’m more focus on durability. Appearance isn't critical as the underside will be coated in rock chip material. If anyone know of something that remain flexible I'd be interested in knowing about it.

I engineered in a high volume automotive painting operation years ago. Both the PPG & DuPont people sent me to their industrial department for their most durable products. They said their automotive paints were aimed more at good colour match, finish & cost. This is when I started using industrial & transportation materials for the underbody. Some of these products are no longer legal here since they contain Zinc Chromate.

Shine, thanks for the image. I assume the dates mean the panel was first painted in 2007. Its looks as though it’s been left out of doors. Would that be for the full duration?

I take it Ospho is a rust converter. I haven’t run across it up here. I yes I prefer epoxies over powder coating. One of the issues if you’re trying to maintain an original look is paint thickness. Also, the right amount of orange peel matters. Too high a finish on a 70’s Euro car doesn’t look right if the car is being judged, but that’s another subject.

Here’s my project as of August when I injured myself & had to take a break.

Octisserie Side - 7.23.2020.jpg


Octisserie Bottom - 7.23.2020.jpg
 

shine

Member
yes the panel was left outside on an old ice box for 3 years . i actually forgot about it . 09 scraped with razorblade . no creep by the rust. from there on it just laid around my booth. as time went by it was almost impossible to get off even with a new blade . this was the old epoxy without uv in it.
 

Barry

Paint Fanatic
Staff member
First thing to know!!
Full cure on spi epoxy is about 90 days, and for a good reason, as all, I care about is durability; adhesion comes with any product as it cures.
Next, dont compare my product to an industrial product.

If you had called, I would have told you not to use my product the way you did and would not have sold you any.

You want to test it let set 3 months and see if you can blast off a door without destroying the door, then soak for months in dot 3 brake fluid.

As nice as I can above, I will add one more thing you don't understand zinc, temp, or acids.

I feel like talking to a wall, so I left out many answers to what you posted, but I think this will help you understand your issue.
A few years ago, a shop said he had used 100% of a major's paint line for, I think it was 13 to 16 years, and he did a car following the perfect paint job with his paint company's products.
The epoxy failed six months later and threatened to sue me, all
I said is hope you do!
The paint line is a great line, but the epoxy is made for insurance work and speed. Not long term life.
 

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
A few years ago, a shop said he had used 100% of a major's paint line for, I think it was 13 to 16 years, and he did a car following the perfect paint job with his paint company's products.
The epoxy failed six months later and threatened to sue me,

So he threatened to sue you after he followed your advice for your products but using another manufacturers products??????o_O
Sounds like a nice guy.:mad:.......actually sounds pretty typical of some of the Shop Owners I have worked for over the years. Always trying to bully people into getting their way.
 

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
The paint line is a great line, but the epoxy is made for insurance work and speed. Not long term life.
I would use Transtar's epoxy before I'd use any epoxy from Axalta. Probably use it before PPG LF as well. Thankfully I don't have too.:)
 

Barry

Paint Fanatic
Staff member
I did not know him, so he could have been a paint rep testing as it happened before.

The funny thing about the above post postings have me wondering also.
The first thing I would have done is called and bitch out the tech line.
 

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
I did not know him, so he could have been a paint rep testing as it happened before.

The funny thing about the above post postings have me wondering also.
The first thing I would have done is called and bitch out the tech line.

Agreed. Going to the trouble of testing various samples of products but not reading the instructions of at least one product and clearly not understanding metal conditioner is an acid product makes me wonder as well.
To me logic would dictate that a sample test would only be useful if I understood and correctly applied the products I'm testing. Otherwise the test is meaningless. That would also be the first step to either success or failure in a project, for if you cannot apply your test products correctly then what chance will you have when it's time to apply them to your project?
Some folks though are like "Doubting Thomas" from the Bible. No amount of empirical evidence is enough to convince them. They need to see the scars so to speak.
One reason why I included the links to the Isotta Fraschini was to show the confidence that RM Restorations had in SPI Epoxy (and SPI Universal Clear). Best of Show at Peeble Beach is a dream for many that never is realized. It is the ultimate award for a Restoration. These cars are unlimited budget "over the top" restorations. They are not concerned with cost. They could have used any product available and they choose SPI. Why? Because they thought it was the best product to use. Barry didn't pay RM to use his product. It was choosen on it's merits. To me that speaks volumes.
 

crashtech

Combo Man
It's not clear from this new member's postings whether or not he's operating in good faith. I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt. If he will prepare a panel in accordance with the tech sheet AND give it the proper cure time (sorry I didn't remember about that, Barry) then we will know that he's on the level. if not, well, maybe you all are right.

The cure time and heat requirements of this epoxy make it a product that is not for everyone. But I can't even imagine my shop without it now, particularly for higher-end work. Patience will be rewarded!
 

Barry

Paint Fanatic
Staff member
Wait a minute, I had a strange text from Canada in the last week or so saying something like this procedure and asked what do I tell him; I just said something like, good luck, don't remember exactly.

So is this the problem?
The products you're trying to us are 20 years old, and you said they don't go bad.
And industrial products are considered a grade lower than automotive with a rare exception.

So if so to sum up if products are 20 years old you have not painted in a long time so all you need to do is read the perfect paint job and you will be in business, were trying to help you understand as jumping from industrial to auto refinish is a big step and a learning curb.
 

arbezc

New Member
Good evening guys,

I didn’t mean to stir up a hornets nest. My initial posting was in good faith, at the time I didn’t realize how critical the process steps SPI Epoxy were.

The original intent of my trial was to test the compatibility of various epoxies over a zinc under layer. Late last year a Porsche restoration expert dropped by to look at my project. We discussed how to reduce paint chipping on the car’s nose. (This is an ongoing problem with 911’s) He mentioned that he no longer uses Glasurit primer because of its hardness. He recommended SPI Epoxy which he found tougher & more chip resistant.

I ordered the Epoxy Primer but my original experiment was already a month underway. I decided to stay with the original metal prep process for the SPI spray-out. The other parameters were followed as per the SPI Tech Manual. The metal cleaner & conditioner was applied as per the DuPont TDS which calls for keeping both wet & thoroughly rinsing. As far as I know this is standard practice. Beyond the issue of acid contamination, the zinc phosphating process generates iron oxides that reduce corrosion resistance if not removed.

Again, all the evidence says SPI Epoxy is a good product. My test parameters didn’t take into account some critical requirements & are therefore not valid. Here’s a few specific responses if I may:

Chris

Thanks for the clips on the Isotta Fraschini but especially the link to the body putty test. It’s much like testing a weld coupon. I plan to duplicate this test before priming the car.

Barry

I thought about calling the tech line but figured an open exchange of ideas would be good – my mistake. I called you late last year, I forget why I called. At the time you walked my through the key points in the Tech Manual – Thanks. (I didn’t text you last week)

That’s it; I’ll have to wait for warmer weather before doing more paining. I’m not confident I can control the heat in my garage closely enough. Next time I’ll follow the Tech Manual exactly & wait 90 days for the primer to cure.

Question - What would be the shelf life of the Epoxy Primer & Catalyst once opened?

Thanks for all your input,
Charles
 

Barry

Paint Fanatic
Staff member
Pot life was brought up in the text of 2 to 3 days not by the user (you) but someone wanting to help you.
Epoxy pot life typically 2 to 5 days, but I had some at home used seven days later, so many factors out of your control.

Next, you did perfect on the neutralizing of the DuPont.

The zinc, you screwed up big time because you do not understand it, and when I tell you why your fantastic industrial primer worked because of what it does not have in it, you will be able to understand more.

Those schools are nothing but sale classes: those who can do, those who can't teach.
I need to get the bodyman on here; they told him to variprime his 62 roman read corvette.
 

Jim C

Oldtimer
what it boils down to is the epoxy needs to be adhered to the metal. if you use any type of pretreatement then there is a film left behind. whatever it may be, iron oxides, zinc, acid, etc or even the film left behind from soda blasting. if you do any of those then the epoxy isnt bonded to the metal. its bonded to the film. its no different than taking that metal panel, waxing it then painting over that. the epoxy does a better job than any pretreatment can possibly do. its the only corrosion protection you need so clean 80grit or blasted metal only.
 

arbezc

New Member
Thanks guys, all good points,

Barry, I hear you regarding the zinc, but there was no zinc under the top most test samples. That's where the Epoxy delaminated the worst. I'm thinking the metal treatment is at fault in that case.

I was asking about Shelf Life not Pot Life. I need to delay for warmed weather. How long is the catalyst good for once it's opened?

Thanks again
 
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