Flop Control

jcclark

Oldtimer
Any of you know any tricks for minimizing flop?
Spraying base more wet or drier make a difference?
I'm still having problems with some silvers that I can't get a good match
because of the flop. There's got to be a something to help, so help!
 

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
It's been my experience that the only way is to adjust it is in the mixing process. What brand of paint is it? When I had to use Omni Plus it was sometimes an issue. Do you mix it or are you getting it from your jobber? If you mix you could try adding some more flop control agent or flattener like we discussed in that other thread.
As far as spray techniques some may say different but the flop is the flop and there really isn't much technique wise that you can do to change it. The only effective way to change it is to add or subtract the amount of flop control in the mix. If you have SPI flattener try adding 1-2% by volume and see what that does.
 
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Jorge M.

Member
Any of you know any tricks for minimizing flop?
Spraying base more wet or drier make a difference?
I'm still having problems with some silvers that I can't get a good match
because of the flop. There's got to be a something to help, so help!
Small amounts of white will lighten the flop as well.

Since this has been brought up again, I’ve forgotten to ask in the previous thread. What does adding white pearl to a silver do?

I remember being discussed in the old SPI forum but I cannot remember the right answer to that and I have searched the forum but I come up empty.
 

DATEC

Member
Small amounts of white will lighten the flop as well.

Since this has been brought up again, I’ve forgotten to ask in the previous thread. What does adding white pearl to a silver do?

I remember being discussed in the old SPI forum but I cannot remember the right answer to that and I have searched the forum but I come up empty.

White pearl will also lighten/soften the face and side tone. But adding too much will kill the overall color. There are times when tinting for a color match that you have to think and go outside of the box and introduce tints that are not part of the original formula. I have also had to make one a tri-coat to get it to match even though it was not a tri-coat from the start, it just didn't have the correct shade of red even when I was tinting so I made the decision to shoot a red tri-coat over my tinted base and there it was. Not all manuf. colors match each other even if you have the exact code, each tint color from one manuf. to another is going to vary to some degree making the overall color differant. So there are those times thinking and going outside the box is a must.
 

jcclark

Oldtimer
I am told that how the metallic is positioned (laying flat) is what makes the flop, looking at the metallic head on when it's flakes are viewed
at a flat position will look like a match, but from a side view you see more of the edges of the flakes and that makes it look darker.
If this is true then wouldn't spraying it at higher pressure and drier make the flakes stay less flat (mis oriented)
and help with the flop?
 

texasking

Active Member
Nothing worse than a silver with a dark flop. Drives me crazy seeing a car going down the road and as it goes by you can see where they tried to blend it. Usually there is something in the formula making it dark, some metallics have a darker flop than others, some silver formulas may even have small amounts of black. Most of the time you can add enough flattener to lighten it, but I have had to change metallics, or the ratio of one metallic to another, in extreme cases. White pearl will also lighten the flop without changing the face too much. White toner will change the face very quickly, making it milky, so you have to be careful. Very little you can do with technique, as Chris said, to change the side tone much.
 
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AAE

Learner
I've said it before and I will again. Try doing a control coat even for butt matches. It will "soften" the flop.
 

DATEC

Member
Drop coat is what I know it as. Like when doing acrylic's the last coat on colors like silver sometimes need a final drop coat to help orient the metallic.
 

AAE

Learner
What are you calling a control coat?
When you get coverage, reduce (I use the intercoat) what's left in the cup by 1:1, drop pressure down 5 or so pounds, pull back your distance a few inches and spray the edges. Let it flash, reduce again to the same ratio and repeat. It helps the metallics to blend better. Eliminates sand piling which leads to darker flop. This is my opinion. I'd love to hear other options.
 

jcclark

Oldtimer
When you get coverage, reduce (I use the intercoat) what's left in the cup by 1:1, drop pressure down 5 or so pounds, pull back your distance a few inches and spray the edges. Let it flash, reduce again to the same ratio and repeat. It helps the metallics to blend better. Eliminates sand piling which leads to darker flop. This is my opinion. I'd love to hear other options.
I got to try that, thanks.
You say spray the edges, do you spray the rest of the new base too?
And what is "sand piling"?
 

jcclark

Oldtimer
Drop coat is what I know it as. Like when doing acrylic's the last coat on colors like silver sometimes need a final drop coat to help orient the metallic.
I always do a drop coat for metallics. didn't know it was also called a control coat, makes sense.
 

jcclark

Oldtimer
but I have had to change metallics, or the ratio of one metallic to another, in extreme cases. White pearl will also lighten the flop without changing the face too much. White toner will change the face very quickly, making it milky, so you have to be careful. Very little you can do with technique, as Chris said, to change the side tone much.
So, does the metallic size play a role? I would think so, but how?
Does smaller metallic help or hurt with flop?

This is all good stuff;)
 

jcclark

Oldtimer
It's been my experience that the only way is to adjust it is in the mixing process. What brand of paint is it? When I had to use Omni Plus it was sometimes an issue. Do you mix it or are you getting it from your jobber? If you mix you could try adding some more flop control agent or flattener like we discussed in that other thread.
As far as spray techniques some may say different but the flop is the flop and there really isn't much technique wise that you can do to change it. The only effective way to change it is to add or subtract the amount of flop control in the mix. If you have SPI flattener try adding 1-2% by volume and see what that does.

Thanks, and by the way, the one giving me trouble right now is Omni.
 

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
Guys, I'm not trying to be a jerk so please don't be offended. Just to be the contrarian on the forum, in all my years of collision repair, I almost never did a drop coat nor did I do any technique other than standard blending techniques. Almost never did I have any flop issues. Then only times that I did, was trying to blend a color to a low grade basecoat, or using a low grade basecoat (not all the time by any means though). The techniques that AAE is talking about are about metallic control rather than flop control. Not the same thing. There is a difference. All you can do with technique is metallic control. You can't change how it lays down flop wise. Sorry.
 

AAE

Learner
Sometimes, I'll substitute half of the metallic mix with a flake that has a similar face but lighter side. In Standox, 811/812 have brilliant faces and very dark sides. I can use 813 and have nearly the same face but a medium light side. Sometimes I get lucky.
 

texasking

Active Member
So, does the metallic size play a role? I would think so, but how?
Does smaller metallic help or hurt with flop?

This is all good stuff;)
It is not really the size of the flake, but the side tone that particular flake has. There is usually 2 toners with the same flake size, but different side tones. Most of the time there is an indicator of some sort on the toner can that will tell you which way, light to dark, it will move the side tone. Just did a Cadillac side today, code 994l. I had 3 spray out cards, 1 was std., and 2 alternates. The face was on the std. formula was near perfect, but the side tone was way too dark. To make that formula match the side tone, I would have to leave out most or all of the black toner, which would change the face. It was far enough off that adding more flattener was not an option. One of the alternates had a near perfect side tone, but the face was too yellow. The other alternate had a yellow face and the side tone was slightly dark. What I will do is use the alternate with the good side tone and just leave a little bit of the toner out that is making the face too yellow, because it is the easiest fix of the 3 formulas I had spray outs on. (this code had standard and 11 alternates!). If I have a choice between a formula with a good face or a good side tone, I will almost always choose the good side tone because it will blend easier, especially if you don't have a full panel to make your blend. Sorry for the long winded reply.
 

crashtech

Combo Man
@texasking , very good explanation about the process of alternate selection. It might seem crazy to a novice that the side tone "flop" is at least as important as the face when blending!
 
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