Pinning Panels

Machspeed

Machspeed

Member
Hey friends, I spent a good deal of time last night just test fitting the alignment of the driver's side fender and door on my project. This doesn't even include the hood or the other side. With all the scratched epoxy, it didn't take long for me conclude that after paint, this could be a total nightmare with a lot of colorful metaphors spoken in the process! Not to mention, all the time it takes to re-align all this. As such, I thought to pin these panels, but after reading about gap closure after paint, I don't know that I want to do that now. Still, I totally dread the idea of going through the process of relocating the hinges on the body and then the doors onto the hinges, along with everything else.

I've been using paint sticks as a gapping gauge and also as a buffer between panels to set those panels but I think they measure only 1/8". I've read, 3/16 is an acceptable gap between panels. Wondering if I pin panels gapped before paint at 3/16, will I have good clearance after paint?

I'd appreciate any input on the subject of this matter.

Thanks!

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I don’t think I would pin panels when the car is on a rotisserie. Things may move around once the car is sitting on the suspension. YMMV.

I’ve never had any luck pinning panels. If there are shims where the pins are they will not hold accurate position because the pin can easily be angled. I take pics of the gaps and shims, bolt positions etc before I blow apart for paint.

Don
 
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If you search "chevman"'s posts you will find a thread where he did a write up on what you are asking. Don gave good advice about not doing it on a rottiserie. Wait till on the ground supported in multiple locations.
 

66 Mustang

Thought I might post some of the work I've been doing on this mustang, I was hoping to paint it this summer, but as usual its taking longer than I thought to get it ready. I've had it tucked away for about 20 years, and finally got the urge to do something with it. I have several project cars...
www.spiuserforum.com

I use panel bond adhesive after the whole car has everything in perfect alignment. Just remove one bolt at a time and use panel bond adhesive on just one side of the shim and replace the bolt and tighten it down while making sure you maintain your alignment. I made almost all the shims for this Mustang, sometimes starting with a hardware store washer. Depending on the surface, you may need a shim on both sides. You could weld it, but its difficult at times, and harder to remove if necessary, and it was necessary at times for me. :rolleyes:

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You can also make shims for the door hinges, at what ever thickness you need. Just clamp the metal to the hinge half, and trace around it, then drill the holes going through the hinge.

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For the size gap, I always try to find out what the car needs. It looks like you already have everything adjusted the way you want it, so if the hood to cowl is right, and the front of the hood lines up good with the front of the fenders, then you will probably be alright. If the hood to cowl is too wide, then you have to move the fenders and door back. Thats why I say the car sets the gap. I don't like to, but you could weld on the back of the hood also to tighten a gap. As far as what is right, it varies. I'm not sure what the new cars are today, but manufacturing has changed, although it seems like the gaps on new cars are wider than they were on older cars, and that doesn't make any sense at all to me.

My brand new 2003 silverado :eek: gaps are 1/4", but in 1957 the same manufacturer stated that gaps should be 1/16"-3/16"

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Your gaps look good, real good. As Don already stated, it's best practice to have the car sitting on the ground for final gapping.

As you've found out, adjusting fenders to doors, and doors to quarter panels is not easy. It takes time and patience. Don't look at all the time you spent as wasted motion. Instead look at it as training when the time comes for final fitment.

I have literally pulled and reinstalled doors and fenders at least six times during my project. Here's the rewarding part. Each time reinstalling, I got faster and more accurate. Now I'm not afraid ( bad choice of word ) let's use (dreading) when final aligning of doors and fender happens after finished paint.

As already mentioned, search SPI member Chevyman, he has a step by step procedure for reinstalling doors.

Keep the faith, you can do it.
 
Thanks gentlemen! Don, I see the logic in pulling it off the rotisserie for this kind of work. As such, I pulled it off the rotisserie and put it on the body cart.

chevman, I thought that panel bond held better than welds. I plan to use washers for the headlight buckets and the rear qtr extensions, but initially thought to weld them in. I may use the adhesive now.

Thanks so much guys!!! Truely appreciate you all.
 
You might also want to put some weight in the doors to simulate the glass and regulators before adjusting and pinning them.

Don
 
If you're going for 100% perfect gaps and panel flushness (skimming/blocking across panels) you'll want it supported on it's suspension and the engine/trans in, along with door seals installed and the weight of the glass/inner door parts at least stuck inside the door (doesn't have to be mounted).

Pinning usually doesn't get you back to 100% perfectly aligned but it does get you 90% there, which should be close enough to not knock the paint off any edges, so it really reduces the worry of reassembly chips/scratches.

Paint build up on the edges should be even all around, so it may very slightly reduce your gap but won't affect how you'll align the panels after paint compared to before.
 
dhutton01 said:
You might also want to put some weight in the doors to simulate the glass and regulators before adjusting and pinning them.

Don
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Anyone ever weigh a Mustang door empty vs full?

Mine's a 65, so a little different than a 69. My hinges have some sag when I push down on them, although the pillar pin "lifts it back" up when it clicks closed. I'm thinking I want it lined up so the door lock and pin aren't doing any aligning.
 
Machspeed said:
Thanks gentlemen! Don, I see the logic in pulling it off the rotisserie for this kind of work. As such, I pulled it off the rotisserie and put it on the body cart.

chevman, I thought that panel bond held better than welds. I plan to use washers for the headlight buckets and the rear qtr extensions, but initially thought to weld them in. I may use the adhesive now.

Thanks so much guys!!! Truely appreciate you all.
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I guess the difference is debatable, but the adhesive has low shear strength, and heat resistance.
 
crashtech said:
How much did the doors move when you took it off the rotisserie?
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No noted movement!
theastronaut said:
If you're going for 100% perfect gaps and panel flushness (skimming/blocking across panels) you'll want it supported on it's suspension and the engine/trans in, along with door seals installed and the weight of the glass/inner door parts at least stuck inside the door (doesn't have to be mounted).

Pinning usually doesn't get you back to 100% perfectly aligned but it does get you 90% there, which should be close enough to not knock the paint off any edges, so it really reduces the worry of reassembly chips/scratches.

Paint build up on the edges should be even all around, so it may very slightly reduce your gap but won't affect how you'll align the panels after paint compared to before.
Click to expand...
I see the logic in that, but I see high profile builders gap and profile panels on a shell all the time. At least, I do on YouTube....lol! Regardless, I'm going to get it as good as I can and push on. It will definitely be painted before the engine and trans are in. I do plan on gapping the doors and trunk lid with seals on.

Thanks for input, gentlemen!
 
So yesterday my plan was to get all panels on and roughly aligned. I wanted to see how it would all go together. As I don't have help, I have purchased some tools that allow me to lift the doors with a floor jack and the hood with my engine hoist. Wouldn't you know it, the dang jack in the engine hoist blew a seal so I had to wait on someone to come by and help me lift the hood.

With my friends help, I got the hood on and then proceeded with the front fenders. The passenger side came together nicely, but the driver's side gave me fits all day long. There is something funky going on with the passenger side door that I just can't seem to work out. I took the door off and jacked with the hinges (BTW, hinges are OEM and solidly rebuilt) and while that made it a little better, I still could not get that door to profile correctly at the upper aft with the body. I have three corners that are good, but not there. This is an OEM door too... the original door to this car! Pretty frustrating experience, actually. One thing for sure, with all the on-off I'm doing and will be doing with these panels, I'll have it down when it comes to putting the panels back on after paint.

Below are pictures of the problem area. Thoughts on addressing this would be appreciated.
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Thanks!
 
Hard to say without the fender on, but it's not uncommon to need to give a door a bit of a twist to get it to fit the opening. Lots of doors have been caught by the wind or suffered other indignities. It's most likely as Don says, just scooch the door out a bit on top, but make sure the fenders and hood fit before calling it good. Sometimes a little twist can help a little if all else fails.
 
As Crashtech said, no panel is fully adjusted until all the panels are fully adjusted. But I think its going to be a problem for you because it looks like it fits good from the rocker to the body line, then it gradually goes in the rest of the way up. If the quarter panel wasn't welded it would be an easy fix. The factory just didn't try for the perfect fit that we like today. The NOS quarter panels I used on my mustang needed a lot of persuasion to get perfection, and I still haven't welded them on. You could twist the door to split the difference between top to bottom.
 
I am not a professional so if this sounds like gibberish please ignore it. :)

When you push out the top of the door by loosening the top hinge bolts the door rotates about the lower hinge. If you loosen all but one of the lower hinge bolts you can determine that it rotates about the remaining tight bolt. So the part of the door below that bolt will actually rotate inward about that bolt as you push the top of the door out. Understanding and applying this has helped me work through some alignment issues in the past. Whether or not this will help you I’m not sure. But hopefully it will help you understand what is going on when you start moving things around.

I can also tell you that generally speaking folks tend to live with a little door to rocker misalignment to get better door to quarter alignment since door to rocker misalignment is less noticeable.

Mandatory backyard hack disclaimer inserted here.

Don
 
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