I'm contemplating a hack and have been too afraid to even ask

This is how the door started out. Now sure why I took the repair so high when the damage was so low.

View attachment 27102

This was after several rounds of initial welding.

View attachment 27103

This was after getting all the welding completed and doing the initial grind of proud weld with cut off wheel. There was a high spot of warpage in the middle marked with an arrow. I think I had cut this spot back open in the picture.


View attachment 27104

Don’t use those clamps. That gap they produce is way way too big. Needs to be tight. I fit one maybe two side and then go in and use a small grinder to finish the edges so they fit perfectly once I have a side heavily tacked in. It takes a while but helps on the back end with this sort of struggle.

Update: Now i am on a big screen yes those gaps are too large. If you have to create a bridge with your weld it will shrink bad. I have had many many conversations with Robert over the last few years and tried many different experiments and if I keep the joints so they touch before I weld (I do that like I said I fit one edge mostly weld it then trim another side to fit perfectly and weld it then move to the next and so on) I can produce a weld that I am happy enough with to fill. It won't look like Roberts work and look like a continuous piece of metal but good enough for me. That said once the gaps are tight you need to crank up your welder. Today I have my Lincoln 120 at the highest setting. When you get the weld timing right (it is a blip of the trigger) you almost won't see a blob on the surface it will be almost flat.
 
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Jim, it was all a test. :p


So, I thought oil can effect was caused because the metal is stretched and needs to be shrunk back?

OP said he used hammer on dolly to stretch the metal, wouldn't that stretch it more?....

Is a shrink disc not an option ?


A recap of the oil can effects. Some require stretching, some require shrinking. In the case given, welding (and the subsequent shrinking) and inconsistency has led to the wavy metal you see. Any weld will shrink as it cools, so as a given, wide gaps only allow the cooling weld to pull together even more, for an inconsistent amount of shrinkage in different areas. Makes it even more difficult when you get to the planishing stage as now you'll have different amounts of planishing needed to counteract the shrinking. All of the effects that occurred are a result of weld shrinkage and too large of gaps pulling even more. Any attempt at using a shrinking disc is the wrong fix in this instance and is only going to pull additional crown out of surrounding areas, making the panel even more unstable.

Before I suggest to someone how to fix an oil can, it is best to find out what kind of oil can you are dealing with, first and foremost.
I consider there are two kinds, a tight oil can and a loose oil can, each will require a different method of repair.

Tight oil can

This is almost exclusively caused by body damage, whether a dent, glancing crease, or media blast damage, and is especially noted by displaced metal that will oil can when considerable pressure is applied, and may or may not forcibly spring back. When the body damage occurs, it stretches the panel throughout the dent or crease. A typical dent, whether straight in or a glancing blow, will have direct and indirect damage. The direct damage goes inward, stretching the panel as it goes. The indirect damage, is a much lesser amount of spring-back, compounded by the internal stretch pushing outward circumferentially, and you will see an outward bulge around the perimeter of the dent/damage. Although the initial inclination may be to shrink this outward bulge, for the most part this adjacent area is relatively damage free, it is mainly being spread outward by the stretch forcing outward.

Shrinking the center damage will start the process of relieving the stresses pushing outward, relaxing some of the bulge surrounding the dent.
After a bit of shrinking, using the shot bag against the outside of the crease/dent and some light taps with a flat body hammer or slapper from the inside will help to start manipulating the crease/dent back into it's original place. I would add that too much shrinking all at once may give you the loose oil can, so profile templates are highly recommended as they work well to let you see how the panel is reacting so you don't go too far too quick.

Tight oil can, part two

Where some tight oil cans from dents may be challenging to determine where to start your shrinking (if it doesn't have an obvious sharp crease to show where to work from) the following process will normally find the area that needs shrinking.... Cycle the oil can in and out a couple times in order to find the outer perimeter. If it helps to mark it with some painters tape, a sharpie, so be it, use whatever works. Now using your thumb from one hand apply slight pressure on a point on this perimeter. Use the other hand to cycle the oil can again, using the same pressure as before. Keep moving your pressure point around the perimeter and cycle the oil can for each spot until you get to a point on the perimeter where the pressure will keep the oil can from cycling, it locks it from moving. This should identify your sweet spot that needs shrinking, and be aware that there may be more than one sweet spot needing attention.

Loose oil can

This is typically caused by welding, over-eager torch shrinking, or shrinking something when you should have stretched, (or fatigue over the many years that has caused a larger panel/hood to settle). Any panel will shrink from heat, causing the crown to draw in from the surrounding area. This is especially noted by a loose, easily flopped back and forth oil can. This is fixed by stretching, typically in the area of the weld and HAZ.

Loose oil can part two

In some cases we'll see that a dent (or tight oil can) has actually caused a loose oil can in the outer reaches in the adjacent area. The direct force
(dent) may have caused displacement of the inherent stresses of the panel (crown) such that it pulled at the adjacent metal elsewhere, resulting in a loose oil can outside the area of the dent. Here the loose oil can should be left alone and focus on removing the stretched area (dent) that moved the panel. Once the dent is removed, this action alone should correct the loose oil can in the adjacent area.
 
Jim, it was all a test. :p





A recap of the oil can effects. Some require stretching, some require shrinking. In the case given, welding (and the subsequent shrinking) and inconsistency has led to the wavy metal you see. Any weld will shrink as it cools, so as a given, wide gaps only allow the cooling weld to pull together even more, for an inconsistent amount of shrinkage in different areas. Makes it even more difficult when you get to the planishing stage as now you'll have different amounts of planishing needed to counteract the shrinking. All of the effects that occurred are a result of weld shrinkage and too large of gaps pulling even more. Any attempt at using a shrinking disc is the wrong fix in this instance and is only going to pull additional crown out of surrounding areas, making the panel even more unstable.

Are my grades posted yet?
 
Letting them cool like that does almost nothing... it is all about planishing the weld dots to relieve the stress.. I have done many tests in attempts to prove @MP&C wrong and I have not been able to do it...

Jim has been paying attention in class. Gas welds are about the softest and most resemble the original properties of the parent metal, and are the easiest to planish... Tig, which typically is used with straight argon, is next in line, and MIG is about the hardest weld to attempt planishing. MIG introduces a bit of carbon into the weld pool with the 75/25 mixture having carbon in it's makeup, which adds to the hardness of the weld. This is why it's much easier if using MIG to planish the welds while they are in a singular, isolated state, weld dots as Jim alluded to. (It is much more difficult to planish the MIG when you have weld upon weld upon weld) Then grind down each weld dot after planishing (front and back) as it gets all that weld proud out of the way for planishing the next set, where the new weld dots will be the only thing planished. So tack the panel in from one end to the other, then planish from one end to the other, and grind from one end to the other. Also, by planishing in between each weld sequence, you are better able to keep the panels shape in check with profile templates that you don't end up with a warped up mess to contend with. Once all that warping takes place, the panel is harder to read and more of a challenge to bring the shape back. Doing your planishing as you go keeping the panel shape more manageable.

@Lizer where do we start here...

First, I apologize in advance if anything seems overly basic or a not needed tidbit. But cases like these are good learning curve hurdles for others to learn from and not make the same mistakes, so sometimes you have to start at the beginning for their benefit as well.

Let's start with the fact that reproduction sheet metal, especially on smaller patches, are not the most accurate. It APPEARS that the lower crease is sharper than the original. This is a common defect in repops. If this appearance is correct (sometimes pictures are deceiving) this can be corrected by laying a round rod or thick wall pipe on the back side and using a slapper on the front just enough to soften the crease.

Next, the absolute first consideration when welding in a patch is weld location. This is determined by the following three factors:

1) weld location should be accessible from the back side for planishing (hammer and dolly) and grinding (removing weld proud after planishing to better isolate the next weld for a more effective planishing)

2) weld should be in a higher crown area of the panel. Down through the middle (flat area) of a fender or quarter panel should be a last resort in most cases, as the higher crown metal does a better job of controlling shrinking effects of the weld.

3) body line creases will help even more to help control panel distortion. So typically a seam next to a crease, about an inch away to leave room for planishing, works best.

The absolute worst advise I have seen online is to use as little of the patch as possible. The above three factors should determine how much of the patch gets used by dictating the optimal weld location. Now let's look at your handywork:

door patch.jpg



The yellow arrow shows what I mentioned above, the sharper crease in the new part. fix as mentioned earlier.

The red horizontal line shows the optimal location for the weld seam in this instance. Any fold in a panel acts as a "lock", so this in effect will help to trap the weld shrinking effects between those two creases where any shrinking/warping can be addressed by planishing the weld dots. If in an open area, like you did, there is NOTHING to prevent the shrinking from pulling the low crown area of the surrounding panel.

As mentioned earlier, no sharp corners. An inside corner focuses weld shrinking effects inside that corner where you have more dramatic results occurring on that side of the weld. What this means is a greater likelihood of a pucker being formed. A larger radius instead of a sharp corner will help to balance out the shrinking effects on either side of the weld for an easier job of planishing out the defect.

Next, fitment. We want the panels to butt tightly together, or as tight as our skills allow. I would interject here and say that if you can't perform the exercise in the next (first) video without impaling your fingers, then watch the second video for some helpful tips that will correct that process defect. Sure, we've all been using tin snips for decades. But if you can't make a cut without leaving impaling spikes, you are doing it wrong.




Now with that out of the way, we should be able to make more accurate cuts. What I normally do in fitting up a panel is to trim the patch to size, lay over top of the area to be fixed, and mark with a sharpie. Now trim the door but leave 1/4" extra. Now your patch will lay more accurately over the door with less obstacle in the way. Reposition, ensure body creases are aligned, and use a nice sharp ice pick to scribe the patch's outer perimeter onto the door. Now come back with your newly honed tin snip skills (after having watched the video) and you should be able to make a very accurate cut that will provide minimal/no gap. The 1/4" extra will help to curl the waste away from the snip jaws. As an example, and as shown in the video, only trimming 1/16 will curl the waste into the path of the jaws. So your final trim cut should leave 1/4" to take advantage of this feature.

Red arrow in the picture shows what we should strive for in panel fitment. A tight joint will help prevent any additional "panel pull" as shrinking occurs when the weld cools. A gap (blue arrow) does nothing to prevent the panels from pulling together. Even the panel clamps you show will not prevent this. Tack on either side of them and you'll find that weld shrinkage can trap them in place. Butted panels prevent panel pull.

For a non-creased panel and using MIG, I would start the weld tacks from one end, and work progressively to the other, spacing the weld dots about 1-1/2 inches apart. Now planish in the same sequence, checking results with profile template to ensure there are no shrinking defects to contend with. Next, grind each weld dot, front and back side, to get the proud out of the way for the next round of weld dots. I use a cutoff wheel as you can actually see what you're doing over a flap wheel that will have you thinning the metal to the sides of the welds. They don't need to be ground perfectly flat, I'll normally get them close (within 1/32 or less) and do final dressing at the end using roloc sander.




Once the first round is done, go back and overlap the first set of tacks and repeat the process of weld, planish, grind, until the panel is fully welded. For a creased panel like you have here, my first tack would be on a crease, if it were only one, and in this case, the first tack would be centered between the two creases. This is done to lock down the crease alignment, then proceed from there outward to the ends. The subsequent passes can go from end to end after the initial crease alignment.

I would add a cautionary note of the second worst advise given online, that of skipping around to control heat. Jumping from one end to the other may allow misalignment of the two panel surfaces, where once all the tacks are complete any excess metal on one side of the weld will result in a pucker. Working from one end to the other, tacking and aligning the panel as you go, will help to keep the surfaces aligned. Heat and the shrinking effects are very controllable that any artificial cooling is a waste of time. I had an online discussion with a "been welding body panels for 30 years" expert. He contended that cooling the panel keep weld distortion at bay, I countered that the quenching effect of cooling, whether using water or air, did more harm to the panel's stresses than not using it. In the end, he admitted it was more to cool the panel for his comfort/not burning his hands. The MIG dot welding/planishing/grinding process spaces things out enough that natural cooling is all that's needed.

In closing, there is MUCH more to panel welding than just grabbing the MIG and going to town. Weld location, panel fitment, planishing, etc, all play a key part in providing consistent results. Yes, what I have described above is a slow, monotonous process. That is by design, especially for those new to the craft. The ability to see and address any weld distortion as you go (did I mention profile templates?) rather than be overwhelmed by massive weld distortion at the end and confused as to the next step, helps to guarantee a level of success to any novice.
 
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Jim has been paying attention in class. Gas welds are about the softest and most resemble the original properties of the parent metal, and are the easiest to planish... Tig, which typically is used with straight argon, is next in line, and MIG is about the hardest weld to attempt planishing. MIG introduces a bit of carbon into the weld pool with the 75/25 mixture having carbon in it's makeup, which adds to the hardness of the weld. This is why it's much easier if using MIG to planish the welds while they are in a singular, isolated state, weld dots as Jim alluded to. It is much more difficult to planish the MIG when you have weld upon weld upon weld. Then grind down each weld dot after planishing (front and back) as it gets all that weld proud out of the way for planishing the next set, where the new weld dots will be the only thing planished. So tack the panel in from one end to the other, then planish from one end to the other, and grind from one end to the other. Also, by planishing in between each weld sequence, you are better able to keep the panels shape in check with profile templates that you don't end up with a warped up mess to contend with. Once all that warping takes place, the panel is harder to read and more of a challenge to bring the shape back. Doing your planishing as you go keeping the panel shape more manageable.

@Lizer where do we start here...

First, I apologize in advance if anything seems overly basic or a not needed tidbit. But cases like these are good learning curve hurdles for others to learn from and not make the same mistakes, so sometimes you have to start at the beginning for their benefit as well.

Let's start with the fact that reproduction sheet metal, especially on smaller patches, are not the most accurate. It APPEARS that the lower crease is sharper than the original. This is a common defect in repops. If this appearance is correct (sometimes pictures are deceiving) this can be corrected by laying a round rod or thick wall pipe on the back side and using a slapper on the front just enough to soften the crease.

Next, the absolute first consideration when welding in a patch is weld location. This is determined by the following three factors:

1) weld location should be accessible from the back side for planishing (hammer and dolly) and grinding (removing weld proud after planishing to better isolate the next weld for a more effective planishing)

2) weld should be in a higher crown area of the panel. Down through the middle (flat area) of a fender or quarter panel should be a last resort in most cases, as the higher crown metal does a better job of controlling shrinking effects of the weld.

3) body line creases will help even more to help control panel distortion. So typically a seam next to a crease, about an inch away to leave room for planishing, works best.

The absolute worst advise I have seen online is to use as little of the patch as possible. The above three factors should determine how much of the patch gets used by dictating the optimal weld location. Now let's look at your handywork:

View attachment 27106


The yellow arrow shows what I mentioned above, the sharper crease in the new part. fix as mentioned earlier.

The red horizontal line shows the optimal location for the weld seam in this instance. Any fold in a panel acts as a "lock", so this in effect will help to trap the weld shrinking effects between those two creases where any shrinking/warping can be addressed by planishing the weld dots. If in an open area, like you did, there is NOTHING to prevent the shrinking from pulling the low crown area of the surrounding panel.

As mentioned earlier, no sharp corners. An inside corner focuses weld shrinking effects inside that corner where you have more dramatic results occurring on that side of the weld. What this means is a greater likelihood of a pucker being formed. A larger radius instead of a sharp corner will help to balance out the shrinking effects on either side of the weld for an easier job of planishing out the defect.

Next, fitment. We want the panels to butt tightly together, or as tight as our skills allow. I would interject here and say that if you can't perform the exercise in the next (first) video without impaling your fingers, then watch the second video for some helpful tips that will correct that process defect. Sure, we've all been using tin snips for decades. But if you can't make a cut without leaving impaling spikes, you are doing it wrong.




Now with that out of the way, we should be able to make more accurate cuts. What I normally do in fitting up a panel is to trim the patch to size, lay over top of the area to be fixed, and mark with a sharpie. Now trim the door but leave 1/4" extra. Now your patch will lay more accurately over the door with less obstacle in the way. Reposition, ensure body creases are aligned, and use a nice sharp ice pick to scribe the patch's outer perimeter onto the door. Now come back with your newly honed tin snip skills (after having watched the video) and you should be able to make a very accurate cut that will provide minimal/no gap. The 1/4" extra will help to curl the waste away from the snip jaws. As an example, and as shown in the video, only trimming 1/16 will curl the waste into the path of the jaws. So your preliminary cut should leave 1/4" to take advantage of this feature.

Red arrow in the picture shows what we should strive for in panel fitment. A tight joint will help prevent any additional "panel pull" as shrinking occurs when the weld cools. A gap (blue arrow) does nothing to prevent the panels from pulling together. Even the panel clamps you show will not prevent this. Tack on either side of them and you'll find that weld shrinkage can trap them in place. Butted panels prevent panel pull.

For a non-creased panel and using MIG, I would start the weld tacks from one end, and work progressively to the other, spacing the weld dots about 1-1/2 inches apart. Now planish in the same sequence, checking results with profile template to ensure there are no shrinking defects to contend with. Next, grind each weld dot, front and back side, to get the proud out of the way for the next round of weld dots. I use a cutoff wheel as you can actually see what you're doing over a flap wheel that will have you thinning the metal to the sides of the welds. They don't need to be ground perfectly flat, I'll normally get them close (within 1/32 or less) and do final dressing at the end using roloc sander.




Once the first round is done, go back and overlap the first set of tacks and repeat the process of weld, planish, grind, until the panel is fully welded. For a creased panel like you have here, my first tack would be on a crease, if it were only one, and in this case, the first tack would be centered between the two creases. This is done to lock down the crease alignment, then proceed from there outward to the ends. The subsequent passes can go from end to end after the initial crease alignment.

I would add a cautionary note of the second worst advise given online, that of skipping around to control heat. Jumping from one end to the other may allow misalignment of the two panel surfaces, where once all the tacks are complete any excess metal on one side of the weld will result in a pucker. Working from one end to the other, tacking and aligning the panel as you go, will help to keep the surfaces aligned. Heat and the shrinking effects are very controllable that any artificial cooling is a waste of time. I had an online discussion with a "been welding body panels for 30 years" expert. He contended that cooling the panel keep weld distortion at bay, I countered that the quenching effect of cooling, whether using water or air, did more harm to the panel's stresses than not using it. In the end, he admitted it was more to cool the panel for his comfort. The MIG dot welding/planishing/grinding process spaces things out enough that natural cooling is all that's needed.

In closing, there is MUCH more to panel welding than just grabbing the MIG and going to town. Weld location, panel fitment, planishing, etc, all play a key part in providing consistent results. Yes, what I have described above is a slow, monotonous process. That is by design, especially for those new to the craft. The ability to see and address any weld distortion as you go (did I mention profile templates?) rather than be overwhelmed by massive weld distortion at the end and confused as to the next step, helps to guarantee a level of success to any novice.

I think that is what I said isn't it? :p
 
I would add a cautionary note of the second worst advise given online, that of skipping around to control heat. Jumping from one end to the other may allow misalignment of the two panel surfaces, where once all the tacks are complete any excess metal on one side of the weld will result in a pucker. Working from one end to the other, tacking and aligning the panel as you go, will help to keep the surfaces aligned. Heat and the shrinking effects are very controllable that any artificial cooling is a waste of time. I had an online discussion with a "been welding body panels for 30 years" expert. He contended that cooling the panel keep weld distortion at bay, I countered that the quenching effect of cooling, whether using water or air, did more harm to the panel's stresses than not using it. In the end, he admitted it was more to cool the panel for his comfort. The MIG dot welding/planishing/grinding process spaces things out enough that natural cooling is all that's needed.

Yes I have experienced this in the past too.. that is why I leave the patch at least 1/4" too big on the other 3 sides... and massage it to fit AFTER I have the previous edge welded (and planished if possible). If it moves I can still make a nice tight joint on the next side.
 
Yes I have experienced this in the past too.. that is why I leave the patch at least 1/4" too big on the other 3 sides... and massage it to fit AFTER I have the previous edge welded (and planished if possible). If it moves I can still make a nice tight joint on the next side.

This may reflect poorly on your test scores. :D

In theory, if the panel has a nice tight fit before welding, it is the right size. If a gap opens on the opposite side after the first tack(s), stop immediately and planish those tacks, it should close the gap back up.
 
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Interesting. Guess I've been doing it wrong all these years.

For a person such as yourself, skilled in body panel fitment, alignment, and installation, it is not an issue. For the novice just learning, it is always one of the first things someone tells them. They are told to tack one end and then the other, to keep the heat down. But if the crown isn't the same/same amount of metal on both sides of the weld between these initial tacks, once all the tacks come together you'll have a pucker between two tacks on one side. This is virtually impossible to cleanly remove, and an easy blunder for someone to make, given they have so much going through their mind at the time. Much easier for a newbie to weld from one end to the other for better results. For Coachbuilders such as David Gardiner, Peter Tommasini, etc, most use the same tack from one end and work to the other, though they are not using a MIG.
 
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For a person such as yourself, skilled in body panel fitment, alignment, and installation, it is not an issue. For the novice just learning, it is always one of the first things someone tells them. They are told to tack one end and then the other, to keep the heat down. But if the crown isn't the same/same amount of metal on both sides of the weld between these initial tacks, once all the tacks come together you'll have a pucker between two tacks on one side. This is virtually impossible to cleanly remove, and an easy blunder for someone to make, given they have so much going through their mind at the time. Much easier for a newbie to weld from one end to the other for better results. For Coachbuilders such as David Gardiner, Peter Tommasini, etc, most use the same tack from one end and work to the other, though they are not using a MIG.

How come Chris's grade wasn't effected?
 
Wow,what a great video and post.Thanks @MP&C

Take this for what it's worth.

Be forewarned, taking advice from MP&C requires you to apply yourself. Follow the steps he has outlined and you'll be making quality professional looking patch/welds.

Applying yourself means:
1) Make tight fitting patches. Set your sights for no gaps.
2) Existing panel / new patch alignment. They have to be on the same plane before welding.
3) Any patch that has a crown must match the existing panel crown, exactly.
4) Tac, grid, planish. This is a time consuming endeavor. Don't rush the process. A straight edge / ruler, is your friend when planishing.
5) Weld dressing. The final blending of weld from new patch and existing panel. This is what separates the men from the boys. It's actually very easy to do if steps 1 thru 4 are done correctly. Remember, keep the sanding disk flat when blending. Using the edge only will cause a trough to form.
 
Yeah I bookmarked it,The video on snips was gold.I had no idea and avoided them,cause I didnt know how to use them.I do now.
 
I am not sure why I didn't just use panel adhesive and flange the mating edges of the panels.

So here's the hack: can I cut the weld back open in the middle of the door, and adhere some sheet metal to the backside of the open seam (inside the door) like a backing plate with panel adhesive to bond the two, fill the open seam on the outside of the skin with panel adhesive, and then continue on as normal?

As Chris mentioned, a repair like this will show a ghost line, yes, even through your filler work. Note the horizontal ghost line just up from the bottom of the tailgate in this video. What a Flange repair gets you.

 
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