Soak/ring up issues

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Hello all, name is Rick. I'm new to the forum. Prepare for a small novel.

I have been using SPI products in the shop for the last 7 months. I have had great end results but with multiple issues with soak up/ring up on a variety of different vehicles. I had these issues terribly on the first car I did in the new shop, it was a 72 Porsche and involved a ton of bodywork with a wide body front and rear conversion. I was using the spi high build 2k primer. I blocked the car down, did all my bodywork and put 2 good coats of high build on with the proper recommended flash and wait times ( always waited 24 hrs to block). I then guide coated the car , fixed some issues and repeated with another 2 coats a couple days later. I blocked the car down again and put 2 more coats on to avoid any misgivings later on. Once the car sat for at least a week while I was on vacation I came back and blocked the car down and prepped for paint finishing off with 600 grit on a softpad d/a. Sprayed everything, it all came out great. Upon the recommendation I let everything sit out in the sun for a few days before doing any finish work. Once satisfied that 3 days in the sun was enough, I sanded the car down and buffed it to perfection. Fast forward a couple days and I get everything to the owner and its all mirror finished. Owner was quite happy and so was I, I go over to his house a week later to look at his other car that he wants painted and the entire car I had done has ring/soak up issues all over the place. I ended up having to sand the entire car down and buff it all over again. I'm glad I put 3 coats of clear on so I had that safety net to not burn through. I was mind boggled because over the last 8 years using Dupont chromasurfacer I have never had such large soak up issues.



In the very end everything turned out beautifully, but with a ton more effort that I'm used to having to do to achieve the finish I want. I love the U.V clear and I'm just under the assumption that since my bodywork is showing through and sand scratches from the 80 grit block when doing the initial bodywork, it has to be the primer shrinking/soaking up the longer it sits. I can see my 80 grit block scratches and from wherever my bodywork feathered out its ringed up. Can anyone provide any added tips if they've experienced this for ways to avoid this as it would be very nice to figure it out.




Fast forward a few months and I have the 2nd Porsche in for an all over paint job, its white, there was minimal bodywork on the car after blocking it down, only a few spots on the car and a few dents on the rear trunk lid. After talking with my jobber over the major issues I had with the previous car I decided to take even further precautions. This time after I finished my bodywork on the trunk I primed the trunk lid and let it sit in the sun for 3 days, blocked it down, primed it twice with high build and brought it home where it sat inside for a week while I was working my other job and out of town for a few days. After guide coating and blocking it down it all felt great and blocked down perfectly, finish that off with 320/500 on a softpad. Get everything sealed, painted and cleared and let it sit for 4 days outside. This trunk lid couldn't have been any slicker. I put it under the fluorescents, brought in the booth to triple check, took it outside with my sunglasses on, turned on the hid lights to check under all kinds of conditions, it was perfect.





I get the owners car back to him a few days later and we get the trunk lid on. It looks great still.

I brought him the rest of the pieces for his bumper this morning, I check the trunk lid just to be sure, and the entire thing has soaked up everywhere I did bodywork, just ringed up everywhere. I am going back over there tomorrow to sand it back down and repolish it.

Im using the 3m premium filler, I usually finish off with a skim coat of dolphin glaze if needed, just fyi.


What am I doing wrong here ? Ive been in the industry for nearly 12 years now and have not ran across the issues that I'm having here with this. I do not want to stop using SPI products, its so user friendly and affordable that I would like to use it forever. The clear is fantastic and I like the sealers as well. But if I cant get this figured out Im going to have to revert to using DuPont primer which is at minimum 2x times the cost of SPI 2k, and being that Im only 7 months in to having my own small shop that would be a bad financial decision for me. I use all SPI products minus color obviously.

Any feedback would be incredibly helpful and appreciated since my local jobber cant really give me any other info that I already didn't put into place myself. Looking forward to any info as I would certainly love to get this figured out so I can continue to use this product.

Thanks a lot...Rick
 
hmm. I've actually never sprayed directly over epoxy, I always coat the epoxy with 2k urethane first since my local jobber told me I need to do that, and after reading the perfect paint job it says to coat the epoxy with 2k urethane. Forgot to mention the car was epoxied first. But the issue is only where my bodywork is. Definitely not over reducing, unless my paint cups are terribly wrong. I'm mixing it 4:1 like the book and the can says and I just about always wind up with nothing left in the gallon or the quart of activator when they are all said and done. Could it possibly be the filler I'm using ? I thought I could possibly be over activating the filler so I lessened up on the hardener on this white Porsche but still had the same problem.
 
So you are using epoxy as your one and only filler primer correct, and as your sealer ?
 
i use only epoxy but that's not for everyone . but a sealer is a must ino . i use a reduced coat of epoxy .
 
I always use sealer on a new panel, or anything that has been primed. SPI sealer specifically, I have the 3 different colors in stock. I'm using DuPont chromabase paint and their value shade sealers are the same as spi's ( minus the dark grey vs black), but I can get it pretty much dead nuts for best coverage for what value shade the paint calls for. I will certainly have to try using epoxy as a sealer to see if it remedies the problem, only problem I see with that is having to wait 2 hours to apply basecoat, sometimes I only have a few hours at the shop to get a car painted and having to wait that long to apply paint is quite the hold up, but I guess its better than the alternative of soak up issues. I will also have to try using only epoxy over my bodywork, follow it with urethane than apply the reduced epoxy as a sealer. Currently if I epoxy anything, it gets 2k'ed. Than I wait, prep it all up and spray 2k sealer over top, follow that with base coat and clear. Ill have to put this new way into work on this next vehicle. Thanks for the suggestions Shine.
 
i look at epoxy as a new coat of steel. if given time to cure it pretty much holds down everything .
 
just so I know, can I mix the epoxy's to create my own value shades or tints, just like I do with the 2k sealers to suit my color ? I would assume so but just want to be sure. Are the SPI urethane sealers only recommended to be used on non bodywork resprays, like new bumpers,new panels or parts of the car that have not had any bodywork ?.. I ask simply cause Ive used chromabase for the last 8 years and still figuring all the spi stuff out, and on all of the vehicles and parts that I have done in the last 7 months, that did not have any bodywork everything had turned out perfectly fine when just using the spi sealer over the 2k high build primer.
 
you can mix the epoxy just like value shade, white, grey and black and anything in between. SPI urethane sealer can also be used for anything-repairs or completes but epoxy is a more durable product IMO. Stop finishing your filler work in 80 grit unless you're using polyester surfacer or give the urethane primer a lot longer to cure and shrink before sanding. Industry standard for finishing fillerwork is 180grit, and some go finer. I would never use urethane primer over 80 grit scratches-JMO. Whatever solvents get absorbed in the filler will eventually come back out, the higher the build the later this will happen. For the most bulletproof job you can use SPI epoxy primer from start to finish but the extended cure times needed to do it this way won't fly for most people. Shrinkage can be from a variety of things regardless of brand or type of primer. Are you using SPI reducer? In a pinch I tried a new to me brand of reducer awhile back and found it so harsh it swelled up everything I used it on-and it all had to come back out eventually-talk about a cure delay!
 
I dont finish with 80. That's just what I use to knock it down and get my nearly finished shape, then I do my final block with 120/180 and sometimes depending on the color I'm spraying move to 220 before primer,, just so happened i may have not gone over it well enough, but still after all that primer and time in the heat I did not expect this type of shrinkage. Yes, all spi reducers. The only thing not SPI is the actual basecoat. Even using spi cleaners. So basic consesus is epoxy all bodywork first, whatever touchups I need to do after guide coat I can use high build 2k if needed,, always use reduced epoxy as sealer over anything with bodywork. I really like the urethane sealers because how quickly they can be touched up/sanded prior to basecoat if any piece of garbage lands in it or what not.
 
[QUOTE I can see my 80 grit block scratches and from wherever my bodywork feathered out its ringed up. Can anyone provide any added tips if they've experienced this for ways to avoid this as it would be very nice to figure it out. ][/QUOTE]

I read this and thought the same thing Bob did.
 
Yes, I missed some spots obviously. Just didn't expect this problem after 6 coats of urethane and time in the heat and such. I have not experienced the vastness of the shrinkage before. I have also never used the platinim filler, I had always used rage or z grip lightweight filler followed by 2 to 3 coats of dupont 2k for the last decade. I will try this next go around with starting off with epoxy over bodywork and using the reduced epoxy as a sealer instead of sticking with the urethane 2k on these all overs with lots of bodywork. Hopefully that remedies the problem. I relied a lot on my local jobber to give me pointers making the switch from dupont and not a single time was the epoxy mentioned to be used over bodywork, was always 2k high build being the reccomendation. I appreciate the info, hopefully the epoxy will take care of everything and get rid of any shrink up.
 
Just an additional suggestion; try the turbo primer. Its claim to fame is complete cure in hours not days. Its the best primer spi makes. It might help reduce or eliminate the shrinking your getting with the high build primer.
 
Polyester primer for heavy blocking then finish it off with urethane or epoxy-this has proven to be the most stable when speed is a factor. I use turbo regularly and do not have any problems unless I abuse it. Epoxy start to finish is optimum but cure time is a major issue for most. Shrinkage issues with urethanes sometimes take a year to show up depending on how quick they were applied and topcoated, for collision repairs it usually doesn't make a pinch of difference given the usual orange peel like factory finish and general use of the vehicle. Put a mirror shine on it and any little shrink, ripple, scratch shows up X10. The next time you prime something shoot an old fender or test panel and toss it in the sun for a few months-see how it sands after full cure compared to a one week cure-big difference. Full cure is full cure. JMO
 
Gonna have to give the turbo primer a shot for sure. Gonna try starting off with the epoxy and reducing for sealer until I run out of product, then try the turbo primer and see how it goes. Just need to get this figured out cause I've never had these issues before with the previous product, a car I painted 6 years ago and used nothing but dupont is sitting in my garage right now, it had tons of bodywork and not a single smidge of soak up, and its been sitting outside for so long and still looks like a mirror. I don't want to move back to dupont simply cause of the staggering cost difference and the very end result being no different than spi. Actually I prefer the clarity and brilliance of UV clear compared to any other clear I've ever sprayed. And chromaclear really is like water compared to UV . I'm sure once I put all the suggestions into place the problem will be taken care of and a load of my mind will be gone. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.
 
Shrinkage could take a year? Wow. Why aren't production shops getting comebacks every year?

My thought was maybe the filler hardener is past date and not hardening completely and allowing solvents to creep under the edges. I'm 99% sure I'm wrong but just a thought.
 
After reading this, the solvent problem is either in the 2K or the basecoat.
I personally think if you used the Dupont base, that is where the problem is coming from as you would really have to abuse the primer to have this problem as far as the base in last six months you are not the only one to have this problem.
Watch the base-maker speed, medium should not be used this time of year, use slow and extend the flash time on the first coat of base. this has helped a few of our shops.

If you think its the primer and you have major amounts on the car, through the primer out in the sun for a day. I just don't think that is the problem going from calls in last six months.
 
I have only used spi reducer since getting the shop setup in december. On this white porsche ive only used slow reducer and nearly doubled the flash times when it was 85 plus in the booth, its been a pretty warm past few month in va and our humidity is terrible. I gave the primer multiple days in the sun and after blocking had always reprimed with 2 more coats. I'm going to try sticking with only epoxy on this 54 chevy I'm doing and see how it all goes.
 
If you did the above, I guarantee you it is not the primer. Try standox or Spies if your jobber has that as they have not been a problem.

One shop this was happening to on a 56 truck uses all spi and that base (black) it was soaking up in shop after 30 days (not on frame yet) he called me after redoing a 2nd time, been a customer for years and I know his work, way over killed the third time, at that point he was dumbfounded and I said the base has to come off. gave him a gallon of SPI black and never a problem since.
 
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