Soak/ring up issues

My local jobber only carrys wanda which I have grown to dislike. Local paint distributor I use carries spies so I may have to switch it up on this next project to compare results, I've just used dupont for so long I've grown comfortable with it. Going to try the epoxy from the getgo with dupont and see how it fares, if not change ill most definitely switch up basecoat.
 
epoxy only is not for everyone. if you are use to high builds or polyester you may not like it. after your filler work is done apply 2 coats of epoxy before you start primer.

the reason i went to spi is because dupont was a pia and ppg was too overpriced .

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epoxy only is not for everyone. if you are use to high builds or polyester you may not like it. after your filler work is done apply 2 coats of epoxy before you start primer.

the reason i went to spi is because dupont was a pia and ppg was too overpriced .
 
It seems I keep hearing of a LOT of problems with Dupont base coats lately. I wonder if they have changed something in their formula's or something? I have always used DBC or Standox for base when SPI colors weren't an option and have not had any of the soaking/shrinking issues with any of the SPI products.

Kelly
 
carolinacustoms;36988 said:
It seems I keep hearing of a LOT of problems with Dupont base coats lately. I wonder if they have changed something in their formula's or something? I have always used DBC or Standox for base when SPI colors weren't an option and have not had any of the soaking/shrinking issues with any of the SPI products.

Kelly
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For a 6 month period, I was getting killed, so know something went fowl , the calls have slowed down but that is what I like about the tech line, I knew when one company had a bad batch of reducer before they did.
One DuPont jobber told me they are reformulating the base because of issues, don't know but we will see.
 
I shot a complete with chromabase and UV three weeks ago, no issues. I usually stay away from DuPont but they were the only ones that formulated a match on this color. I used transtar basemaker.
 
Read this thread, and I have to suggest that anyone putting 6+ coats of a urethane primer on anything should consider moving to a polyester primer for the initial blocking stages. Then either 2K, or even better, epoxy can be applied for finish blocking prior to paint. To me, any more than about 3 coats of urethane primer is too much unless there is a long time between applications.

Also, in the time-crunched production work we do here, featheredging with finer grits (think 320) lessens the edge-mapping problem considerably. Any job that goes from start to finish in a week or two is going to have some bit or shrinkage issues, but if the material is applied over a smoother surface, the problem becomes less noticeable or even invisible.
 
I didn't plan on putting 6 coats on, it just so happened because of how much bodywork there was and how there is almost zero actual flat surfaces on a 72 carerra, the widebody conversion and all didn't make for quick bodywork, I had to use a flex block on the whole car cause if I used a flat block I would create flat spots on this particular car especially on the flares. It was very difficult. I didn't hammer 6 coats on top of each other, I primed, blocked, primed, blocked...etc etc. But I will definitely be bringing in a polyester for the next wide body I do on one of those cars. There wasn't a ton of time between each coats, but usually 2-3 days, sometimes 5-6 depending on what my schedule was like that week.

Unfortunately I am very convinced at this point that it is indeed the primer that is the culprit of my issues. I did a color change on a car between the first Porsche and the second Porsche. It had quite a bit of bodywork since it was an older vehicle, I was provided DuPont chromasurfacer primer by the owner which I was totally ok with using since I've used it for so long. I saw the car yesterday and its been over 2 months since I finished it and I went around and looked at all the spots I did bodywork on and there was no shrinkage or soak up at all. That was the only difference in the products I used on all the other vehicles I've done. I used the same platinum filler, SPI sealer, chromabase paint with SPI reducer, and UV clear. So just by process of elimination I would think it was the primer that was at the root of the problem. I'm going to be doing the epoxy onto bodywork first from now on to see if that remedies my problem. I am also going to give the turbo 2k a shot and see how I fare.
 
Epoxy as a sealer before paint should not be required if surface is prepared correctly. In my opinion that is a band aid over poorly prepared surfaces. epoxy should be used for bare metal, fiberglass etc. On a restoration I could justify using it before paint but on everyday refinishing in my opinion it overkill and a waste.
 
Epoxy as a sealer adds a lot of durability because of the increased adhesion it provides. You'll see far less rock chips, the size of the chips if any will be way smaller, and years and years down the road the difference is night and day. On a restoration or show car that doesn't see much if any road use sealer isn't a big deal but on a daily driver it's a must IMO especially in chip prone areas if you want it to look good long term.
 
Its cheap insurance, it takes me months and sometimes over a year to put color on these builds , one more step out of hundreds knowing it will last longer and bring a better result is a no brainer.
 
i agree with bob. the difference is night and day with epoxy as a sealer. even with everything prepped 100% you will see a huge difference. way less stone chips on bumpers, ect.
 
streamlinecollision;37533 said:
Epoxy as a sealer before paint should not be required if surface is prepared correctly. In my opinion that is a band aid over poorly prepared surfaces. epoxy should be used for bare metal, fiberglass etc. On a restoration I could justify using it before paint but on everyday refinishing in my opinion it overkill and a waste.
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This is pretty much what Im used too. epoxy over fiberglass or bare metal. Again Ive used the chromabase system for so long and they just have the chromasurfacer 2k primer, and 2k sealers. Obviously the primer over bodywork, block, prep, than urethane sealer, let flash 20 mins than you can start laying base. I don't always have the time to be able to spray epoxy as sealer and wait 3 hours before laying basecoat. I have another carerra coming in next week and will be trying the epoxy over bodywork, block, reapply 2k, block and reapply the high build if needed, prep then do my regular routine. 2k sealer, base, clear and see how it goes. Its going to be a darker color so I will probably be able to see if it has remedied the problem inside of a week. Ill let it sit out in the sun and see if it soaks up or not.

sidenote. I had some repairs to make on the wifes car, I had 4 spots that needed some bodywork and I applied 2 coats of epoxy. I waited 24 hours, blocked them down and then coated with 2 coats of 2k urethane primer. did my prep routine and my normal spray routine, its only been 3 days since fixing it so by the end of the weekend I'm going to go look at the spots that had bodywork and see if there is any soak up. Hopefully there isn't and all my issues are taken care of and the problem remedied.




Jim C;37556 said:
i agree with bob. the difference is night and day with epoxy as a sealer. even with everything prepped 100% you will see a huge difference. way less stone chips on bumpers, ect.
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is this something you do on everything you paint as well ?

I can understand if you aren't in a rush to do something or what not, but a shop that needs to do 7/8 bumpers a day its just not very feasible considering the amount of time recommended to wait before applying basecoat. I don't run a very busy production shop where speed and quantity is the only thing that matters, but still if I can get a bumper sprayed and done in 2 hours as opposed to 5 its just much better time wise. Does everybody wait 3 hours like I have seen mentioned earlier, or is there a way to move the process along faster, by just laying a light ground coat of epoxy for adhesion as opposed to coverage and making up for it with the urethane sealer ?
 
I read the whole thread and sorry you are having problems but the type of shrinkage you are talking about does not sound like it would just buff out
 
it has on most of the spots, and Ive went back and checked. Although not on everything. I am in the process of stripping and fixing the hood of the silver Porsche I did cause after about a week sanding and buffing,it reappeared. It was much less noticeable but still there. Same with the trunk lid of the white one. Ill be stripping and redoing that. Obviously its not something I'm happy about cause I have never had this big of a problem but this was my first time using spi 2k urethane primer, I should have come on here first instead of talking with my jobber since not once was it mentioned I should be putting the epoxy down first, I guess we both just assumed, and instead its costing me more money and time, but it has to be done. Im really really hoping that applying the epoxy first over bodywork will remedy the situation.
 
I dont understand what you mean about the time involved to use epoxy as a sealer. Most shops i know of use a sealer of some sort. It takes 5 min to spray epoxy on a bumper then base. If anything it uas helped me speed things up a little. I didnt notice in your other posts but once you put your base on how long did it sit before you cleared it?
 
I always spray SPI epoxy as a sealer before paint, I think just saying epoxy throws some people off because I would never for any reason spray Omni epoxy as a sealer! SPI epoxy a different animal its so great because of its versatility.

I mix the SPI 1:1:25% and spray one medium wet coat- wait 2hours as per SPI tech sheet and then start my base, never had a problem.

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I always spray SPI epoxy as a sealer before paint, I think just saying epoxy throws some people off because I would never for any reason spray Omni epoxy as a sealer! SPI epoxy a different animal its so great because of its versatility.

I mix the SPI 1:1:25% and spray one medium wet coat- wait 2hours as per SPI tech sheet and then start my base, never had a problem.
 
Yeah i agree. I mix 1:1:1 spray 1 med coat and spray my base in 5-10 min. You only need to wait if you spray it heavier. A thin coat you can go over it as soon as it flashes dull. Ive been doing that for 12 years now.
 
Jim is right on, if the sealer coat of epoxy is super thin there's no need to wait any more than flash off before applying base. None of the shrinkage problems discussed here are related to using a sealer or sealing fillerwork with epoxy before 2K surfacer is applied. You just need to learn how to use the products, each and every product out there has it's own capabilities and limits. Application thickness, mixing, application speed, cure time before sanding, temperatures...it all comes into play. Even your fillerwork and grit selection has a lot to do with it. If you want the quickest cure there's always UV primer, 10 minutes till full cure is reached and ready to sand, $268/quart http://www.strobelssupply.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=95926
 
yeah the #1 reason i always find when guys have shrinkage issues is that they didnt allow the basecoat to dry enough before clearcoating. to me that is the most important part of a good job. no brand of 2k urethane primer is a 100% solvent barrier so you can have your 2k primer sit in the sun for a year but as soon as you apply base 1/2 the solvents flash off and the other 1/2 goes into the primer or layers below. most guys i know that have a problem will say they waited 30 min then clear then they wonder why they see their sanding scratches or a repair come back down the road. shops with a real nice booth can run a purge cycle where the base is applied then you do a quick bake on it to flash everything before clear. this is great but if you dont have that kind of booth then it takes hours, sometimes overnight for all the tail solvents to come out of the primer and base. it depends alot on the base and how heavy its sprayed. diamont for instance has a ton of super slow tail solvent so it will flash and seem dry but its not.that stuff is an overnight wait without a purge cycle. chromabase might be the same, i dont know.
 
Jim C;37571 said:
I dont understand what you mean about the time involved to use epoxy as a sealer. Most shops i know of use a sealer of some sort. It takes 5 min to spray epoxy on a bumper then base. If anything it uas helped me speed things up a little. I didnt notice in your other posts but once you put your base on how long did it sit before you cleared it?
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The time reccommended until base can be apllied. You just agreeed to airbrushs response, but he waits 2 hours before applying basecoat after spraying epoxy as a sealer, but you only wait 5 to 10 minutes before applying base ?. And don't have any problems because you are spraying a very ligjt coat is that correct ?., I use sealer. But I've been using the spi 2k urethane sealer, not the epoxy reduced to spray as sealer. I was using slow reducer on the white car at the time so I gave each coat of base 20 mins to flash since it was about 85 degrees and the tech sheet I have that was plenty of time... The silver one it was pretty cold so I gave it 30 to 40 mins in beetween base and an hour before clear.

I'm not neccessarily looking for the quickest curing, just looking to avoid any further shrink issues, I'm certain that none of this has anything to do with what type of sealer I had been using, its the primer and first ground coats I have started with. I should have been epoxying my bodywork all along then covering with 2k. I have only been using the epoxy on bare metal or fiberglass because I've been used to dupont for ao long I just went with the process I knew. That was completely my fault for not paying closer attention. I agree with Bob, once I get to know these products more I'm sure my results will be much more satisfactory. I'm looking forward to seeing if the epoxy as my first layer will remedy my problems.
 
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