Soak/ring up issues

sorry if that was confusing. i was agreeing that its a different animal than omni and that he always shoots epoxy before base. i just let the epoxy flash dull. 5-10 min if your doing a single thin coat is all thats necessary. the spi urethane sealer is good stuff but i just prefer the epoxy because the adhesion of epoxy is just so much better than urethanes. i dont think the epoxy over you filler work is a cure to your issue. it may help and there is nothing wrong with doing it but in the probably 13 years i have been using spi i have done more jobs that i can count without shrinkage issues and without putting epoxy over my filler. an hour for the base to flash in cooler or cold weather before clear is your problem right there. in a cool shop without a baking booth you can run a purge cycle on there is no way all the solvent you just soaked the primer with is out in that amt of time. the base may feel dry but there is still solvent in the paint film. in the winter with a cool shop and its just air drying then overnight dry before clear. in the summer when its warm base first thing in the morning and clear at the end of the day. this may not be the most productive but it the best way to do a paintjob where you know in 10 years it will look just as good as the day you did it. only way around it is a quick bake cycle after the base is applied.
 
Solvent soak up- I did a singlestage job last fall, PPG DCC, all the parts were shot with three coats and allowed to cure a month, I had used epoxy for the sealer, sanded the exterior with 320 dry followed by a light 600 sand and shot three more coats of DCC. I had ran out of SPI reducer and picked up some 885 Matrix for round 2-this was a big mistake. That solvent was so harsh it swelled up everything-it went deep and showed mapping. The only choice I had was to sand it to open the surface up and wait it out till full cure then sand and buff. It has been fine since but what a pain in the ass! I will never use matrix reducer again-maybe it was a bad batch of reducer but wth? Lesonal reducer also seems really harsh and people often complain about frying and mapping on repairs with it. I'll stick with SPI reducer from now on or use only PPG if I'm in a pinch. As Jim pointed out the primer always gets blamed for shrinkage and mapping but there is often other causes.
 
Jim C;37578 said:
sorry if that was confusing. i was agreeing that its a different animal than omni and that he always shoots epoxy before base. i just let the epoxy flash dull. 5-10 min if your doing a single thin coat is all thats necessary. the spi urethane sealer is good stuff but i just prefer the epoxy because the adhesion of epoxy is just so much better than urethanes. i dont think the epoxy over you filler work is a cure to your issue. it may help and there is nothing wrong with doing it but in the probably 13 years i have been using spi i have done more jobs that i can count without shrinkage issues and without putting epoxy over my filler. an hour for the base to flash in cooler or cold weather before clear is your problem right there. in a cool shop without a baking booth you can run a purge cycle on there is no way all the solvent you just soaked the primer with is out in that amt of time. the base may feel dry but there is still solvent in the paint film. in the winter with a cool shop and its just air drying then overnight dry before clear. in the summer when its warm base first thing in the morning and clear at the end of the day. this may not be the most productive but it the best way to do a paintjob where you know in 10 years it will look just as good as the day you did it. only way around it is a quick bake cycle after the base is applied.
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alright, copy that. 1 light coat of epoxy and let it flash off before base. Only other question I have is are you applying 2k urethane sealer over top of that ? Only reason I ask is because of coverage issues. When I have a brand new black plastic bumper and I'm spraying it say solar yellow, I'm going to make certain that I completely cover it with sealer before laying base so that I'm not trying to complete coverage with my base that may or may not be like freaking water. I did a front end clamshell of a lotus a while back ( it wasn't black plastic though, it was fiberglass and I had primed it white), and if I had not made complete coverage with my tinted sealer( I added some yellow to the sealer)there is no way that I would have been able to make complete coverage because this yellow is literally like water, it barely has any pigment at all. Its almost all binder and balancer. If I hadn't have made complete coverage with my sealer I would have been left putting 9 coats of yellow on or something crazy.


As far as flash off times, is that 6+ hour window ( I'm just guestimating from the base in morning, clear at end of day comment) SPI specific or just a rule you follow in general ? I only ask because like I've mentioned multiple times in this thread, I've used DuPont for so long and I have never waited that long to apply clear and have never ran across this severity of soak up issue before. I would like to get all the details hammered out so I can make sure I don't have to deal with this in the future and/or have to sand and buff or respray anything ever again and lose money.

Now that I see your website, my local jobber actually told me to look you up, we were talking and he knows the kind of work I put out and mentioned you do a lot of resto's and show cars like I do, I will take all of your input and stand by it. I like the spi products, I just want to be able to get it correct so I'm not having to go back and redo things. It is a new product to me and I'm relaying most of what I do, to how I used to do it with chromabase. I know its a learning process so I'm looking for the best ways to go.


Bob Hollinshead;37585 said:
Solvent soak up- I did a singlestage job last fall, PPG DCC, all the parts were shot with three coats and allowed to cure a month, I had used epoxy for the sealer, sanded the exterior with 320 dry followed by a light 600 sand and shot three more coats of DCC. I had ran out of SPI reducer and picked up some 885 Matrix for round 2-this was a big mistake. That solvent was so harsh it swelled up everything-it went deep and showed mapping. The only choice I had was to sand it to open the surface up and wait it out till full cure then sand and buff. It has been fine since but what a pain in the ass! I will never use matrix reducer again-maybe it was a bad batch of reducer but wth? Lesonal reducer also seems really harsh and people often complain about frying and mapping on repairs with it. I'll stick with SPI reducer from now on or use only PPG if I'm in a pinch. As Jim pointed out the primer always gets blamed for shrinkage and mapping but there is often other causes.
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Yea that stuff is so garbage, I laugh at some of these shops I see on tv that are using matrix, it is terrible stuff, I used it once as well and the base just did not lay down right, it came out sort of chunky and turned me off immediately. I have only used SPI reducers for the last 8 months in everything I have done. I really like the reducers. I really like everything I have used from SPI so far minus my experience with the soak up issues, I just want to figure it out so I can move ahead and when something is done, not have to worry about it.
 
4 hours, 6 hours, overnight, whatever you can give it the better. there is no real written rule. i know production shops want it in and out but if you can afford to wait then imo there is nothing else better for longevity of a paintjob then let it sit in base overnight. production shop painters always look at me like im nuts. lol. in most cases i just use epoxy for the sealer. i dont generally seal twice. the epoxy in white or light grey when i shoot it doesnt cover completely and i understand the colors dont always cover or you need a pure white like with bright yellow or orange. 80% of the time the base doesnt need 100% solid color because it will cover BUT if it does then i will go ahead and either second coat the epoxy so its covered then wait an hour, put base on then set overnight OR i will just do the one coat of epoxy then shoot a coat of white or the required color base before my color. you can use sealer for those instances if you need to or would rather do that than base then thats fine. or hell for those situation where you need full coverage then the spi 2k sealer is just fine instead of epoxy. i just use epoxy whenever i can. here is a funny pic of an evo i just did for a friend of mine. i had to send him this pic too just to break his balls. its red so i mixed up epoxy 1:1:1 then put a shot of the red base in it to tint it. one coat was fine and it got it maybe 75% covered. good enough for the base to cover.

ahh your jobber sent you to my website, your in va beach. must be cal?

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Hahah, I bet he was freaking out thinking his car was pink haha.

He sent me to your website to call you since you've been using spi for so long and probably went through some of the same things I am, and since you do a lot of custom show stuff were in the same niche. Yep, Cal is my jobber, I like Cal alot and really happy i got introduced to him, but while he may sell it and have some experience with it his actual hands on with it is limited to the one car he did. So he pointed me in your direction to ask questions since we both use it every day and it would be a second contact to get info from. I didn't want to be blowing up the tech line everyday and have the guys get tired of me, and the 2 other shops around here that I know of that use spi, one is a production 12 cars a day shop who don't really care too much about soak up issues since most customers would never notice, and the other is just a complete crap shop that doesn't have a booth, have never heard of wetsanding and buffing, doesnt know what shrinkage or soak up even is and in general just an all around terrible paint shop, but they do crazy cheap work so they stay busy. I wouldnt take any advice from them cause I've known the guy for 12 years and his quality of work hasn't improved whatsoever in the last decade which I find astonishing.
 
shine;36959 said:
i look at epoxy as a new coat of steel. if given time to cure it pretty much holds down everything .
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I agree with shine. I will use 2k for scratches and minor leveling but prefer too grind and feather back areas that need work then use epoxy, then body work, then epoxy, then 2k allowing each coat to dry before proceeding to the next step (when I'm at home doing work).

I did a complete tare down and body/paint on a mid 80's Porsche 911 I even stripped the hood (what a PITA) and their paint is tough. At where I work we don't use Epxoy nothing (cheep) so I did the best I could with the 2K primer and after I painted and buffed my "A" off the same thing happened after it sat for a couple days while I put it back together. Like you, I had to do the wetsand and buff over the customer was happy as hell with the job but my back and arms were sore. I have never had this problem when I do things at home.

I think that if I was able to wrap the work with Epoxy that might not have happened.

I also like to let the primer breathe after I sand it, a day IMO is good.
 
If you don't value you're own time, nobody else will either..

That is kinda how I feel in relation to using epoxy.. It saves you time in the end over having to re-sand and buff. I bet if you knew then what you know now you would have bought the epoxy you're self to save all of the time.. I found this out the hard way myself a few times.. Now I always epoxy before 2k, even before basic collision,, on the collision I do rush it a little more though but it's stall a good medium..

I also love it for it's reverse guide coat effect,, when you sand through to the epoxy you know it and know you need to stop.

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If you don't value you're own time, nobody else will either..

That is kinda how I feel in relation to using epoxy.. It saves you time in the end over having to re-sand and buff. I bet if you knew then what you know now you would have bought the epoxy you're self to save all of the time.. I found this out the hard way myself a few times.. Now I always epoxy before 2k, even before basic collision,, on the collision I do rush it a little more though but it's stall a good medium..

I also love it for it's reverse guide coat effect,, when you sand through to the epoxy you know it and know you need to stop.
 
MORE IMPATIENT;37587 said:
Yea that stuff is so garbage, I laugh at some of these shops I see on tv that are using matrix, it is terrible stuff, I used it once as well and the base just did not lay down right, it came out sort of chunky and turned me off immediately. I have only used SPI reducers for the last 8 months in everything I have done. I really like the reducers. I really like everything I have used from SPI so far minus my experience with the soak up issues, I just want to figure it out so I can move ahead and when something is done, not have to worry about it.
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What?.... Matrix garbage?... But Kount Kustoms uses it. I know, I too seen it on TV..

We tried it once where I work and it is Crap we even were using their clear, Oh boy. My boss even had us try Nason Basemaker for the Dupont Chromabase we use, that is crap too.

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MORE IMPATIENT;37587 said:
Yea that stuff is so garbage, I laugh at some of these shops I see on tv that are using matrix, it is terrible stuff, I used it once as well and the base just did not lay down right, it came out sort of chunky and turned me off immediately. I have only used SPI reducers for the last 8 months in everything I have done. I really like the reducers. I really like everything I have used from SPI so far minus my experience with the soak up issues, I just want to figure it out so I can move ahead and when something is done, not have to worry about it.
Click to expand...

What?.... Matrix garbage?... But Kount Kustoms uses it. I know, I too seen it on TV..

We tried it once where I work and it is Crap we even were using their clear, Oh boy. My boss even had us try Nason Basemaker for the Dupont Chromabase we use, that is crap too.
 
I definitely agree with you, stuff is so cheap, and it shows.

Good news, I decided to go check the wifes car and there is zero soak up as of today. It showed itself inside of a week on the other white porsche and its been 2 on the wifes car so that is great news.

I have the silver hood at the shop and I stripped it, epoxied it, did the bodywork than epoxied again, it all blocked out really well so, I put 2k on today. ill guide coat and block that down tomorrow just to be sure than go over it with my soft pad and finish with 500. I am also going to use the reduced epoxy to lay a light coat of sealer, then ill follow it with the 2k urethane because that's what I used on the whole car and I want to make sure this matches perfect. The 2k grey sealer and epoxy are a little different shade. Then I'm gonna lay my base, I have to work at the station on thursday so the base will have about 36 hours to release before I go back and lay clear on friday. I'm hoping this process relieves my problems.

Thats not too much time is it, I don't want to lose that chemical bond completely cause I certainly don't want any delamination issues later on.
 
The last time I used Chromabase it had to have its own Basemaker reducer. The SPI reducers are the BEST, but not sure if they are compatible with Chromabase.
 
I talked with Barry and my local jobber prior to starting to use spi products and they assured me the reducer was compatible with chrombase.

I have done a lot of work with chromabase and spi reducers over the last 7 months, so I sure hope that is the case.
 
well I have the hood sitting in the booth right now with with basecoat on it, itll be that way until Friday when I can lay clear.

hopefully since I used epoxy over the bodywork, then put down the reduced epoxy as a semi sealer I wont have any problems with shrinkage.
 
MORE IMPATIENT;37793 said:
I definitely agree with you, stuff is so cheap, and it shows.

Good news, I decided to go check the wifes car and there is zero soak up as of today. It showed itself inside of a week on the other white porsche and its been 2 on the wifes car so that is great news.

I have the silver hood at the shop and I stripped it, epoxied it, did the bodywork than epoxied again, it all blocked out really well so, I put 2k on today. ill guide coat and block that down tomorrow just to be sure than go over it with my soft pad and finish with 500. I am also going to use the reduced epoxy to lay a light coat of sealer, then ill follow it with the 2k urethane because that's what I used on the whole car and I want to make sure this matches perfect. The 2k grey sealer and epoxy are a little different shade. Then I'm gonna lay my base, I have to work at the station on thursday so the base will have about 36 hours to release before I go back and lay clear on friday. I'm hoping this process relieves my problems.

Thats not too much time is it, I don't want to lose that chemical bond completely cause I certainly don't want any delamination issues later on.
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CAUTION!!!! I know Dupont (especally ChromaBase) gives a 24hr max window to clear their base before you have to scuff, clean and base again. I've been using ChromaBase for years and you really do need to wash down the scuffed base before putting more base down I know by failed experiance trust me you can/will run into problems .

Dave
 
DATEC;37817 said:
CAUTION!!!! I know Dupont (especally ChromaBase) gives a 24hr max window to clear their base before you have to scuff, clean and base again. I've been using ChromaBase for years and you really do need to wash down the scuffed base before putting more base down I know by failed experiance trust me you can/will run into problems .

Dave
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Do not scuff or sand ChromaBase or Chroma Premiere Basecoats. There's big potential for delamination when sanding these basecoats. If you read the tech sheets only minor denibbing is recomended-anything more than that strip it off and start over.

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DATEC;37817 said:
CAUTION!!!! I know Dupont (especally ChromaBase) gives a 24hr max window to clear their base before you have to scuff, clean and base again. I've been using ChromaBase for years and you really do need to wash down the scuffed base before putting more base down I know by failed experiance trust me you can/will run into problems .

Dave
Click to expand...

Do not scuff or sand ChromaBase or Chroma Premiere Basecoats. There's big potential for delamination when sanding these basecoats. If you read the tech sheets only minor denibbing is recomended-anything more than that strip it off and start over.
 
I thought i had remembered reading something years ago about my clearcoat window but I cant be sure. Now im worried. did I just screw myself by laying the base but not being able to clear it until tomorrow ?. It will have been 48 hours. I have enough base to grey scotch brite it and lay another coat or 2 to make sure I dont have any streaking, but probably just barely enough.
 
if it were me i wouldnt give a second thought about just clearing over it if it had been 2 days or 2 weeks. i havent used a whole lot of chromabase over the years but i cant imagine its any different that any other basecoat. sometimes i have stuff sitting here for a few weeks while doing artwork and then the stuff is just clearcoated. all bases have a "recoat window" which in my opinion is way overrated and the tech sheets are written just for production shops to get the stuff in and out the door fast without issue. in 15 years i have never once had clear delaminate off my base but again thats not chromabase. that is about 15 other brands i have used over the years. i do know of what bob is speaking of and all the test done with it. knowing that i WOULD NOT scuff chromabase and recoat it. chromabase doesnt stick to itself for some reason and you end up with delamination issues between the base layers.
 
I just read the tech sheet and it does says maximim allowable dry time before clearcoating is 24 hrs, also says can be recoated after 24 hrs. I'm assuming with a scuff.

I'm thinking I'm just gonna clear it and hope I don't have any issues down the road since I've used all other spi products and those tech sheets are written under the assumption all dupont stuff is used, might be a different set of circumstances with a different reducer or sealers, clears.. etc etc.
 
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